Session 7-05: Húrin and Huor

David_M_R said:
In any case, Túrin might have learned Quenya from Húrin if the latter learns it in Gondolin.
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Dor-lómin is under the ban and Sindarin speaking? Do not think it probable for Túrin to know Quenya as Húrin is seldom home, and why would he teach his toddler such an unused language? Morwen would probably not know Quenya either, having been born in Dorthonion?

What is more, Tuor knowing Quenya before coming to Gondolin seems improbable too, as Annael is a Greyelf. Tuor can make by using Sindarin at first but at one stage he will have to learn Quenya too. Pengolodh would be a good teacher for that task.
 
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David_M_R said:
I've just read the 1937 Quenta version of the (early parts of the) Túrin story, and it mentions explicitly that Túrin could speak Noldorin (this is before Thingol's Ban was a thing Tolkien thought of). This is not kept in the Narn, though, where it has Nellas teach him how to speak Sindarin in the style of Doriath. I don't have the library copy of War of the Jewels at the moment, so I can't check the Grey Annals, but I presume it wouldn't have Túrin speaking Quenya openly in Doriath! Not to mention that Noldorin became Sindarin, but that's an orthogonal issue.

In any case, Túrin might have learned Quenya from Húrin if the latter learns it in Gondolin.
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We could make a nod to that with different dialects of Sindarin.
 
War

Another issue to consider is the role that Húrin will play in the fight against Morgoth. It is very much his personal and individual story to defy Morgoth...but he also plays a role as the leader of his people. We'll need a personal arc for him, and also to show the way he makes the Union of Maedhros happen.

At the beginning of his story, Húrin is fighting the creatures of Sauron as a teen (he's 18-21 when the skirmish happens that leads him to Gondolin). What is his starting point? Is he just fighting because that's what is expected of him? It's an honorable thing to do, everyone else is doing it, etc? Or does he have some sort of burning desire to fight evil even then?

During his time in Gondolin, he gets a sense of urgency - he can't just stay in Gondolin and wait, or he'll grow old without ever having a chance to join the fight. He has a conversation with Turgon that is persuasive enough to break the secrecy of Gondolin's location. And Turgon will himself join the fight at the end of the season. So, this is a very significant conversation. But what did Húrin gain from Gondolin?

Galdor will die somewhat young and suddenly. Presumably, we will have him die in a fight against Morgoth's forces. Húrin will take his father's place as leader of the people of Dor-lómin. How gung-ho is Húrin to go to war after his father's death? Is that his only motivation? And how on board are the people of his house with this course of action? Are they reluctant or doubtful, or fully supportive? Does it take another attack (such as the plague) to galvanize the people to action?

Naturally, Fingon and Maedhros will agree to form the Union of Maedhros for their own reasons. At what point does Fingon bring Húrin into the conversation, and what role does he play in organizing for the war?


We need to show a story that shifts from amdir (we can win this fight!) to estel (this fight will be won!) How will we do that in Húrin's case?
 
MithLuin said:
War

Another issue to consider is the role that Húrin will play in the fight against Morgoth. It is very much his personal and individual story to defy Morgoth...but he also plays a role as the leader of his people. We'll need a personal arc for him, and also to show the way he makes the Union of Maedhros happen.

At the beginning of his story, Húrin is fighting the creatures of Sauron as a teen (he's 18-21 when the skirmish happens that leads him to Gondolin). What is his starting point? Is he just fighting because that's what is expected of him? It's an honorable thing to do, everyone else is doing it, etc? Or does he have some sort of burning desire to fight evil even then?

During his time in Gondolin, he gets a sense of urgency - he can't just stay in Gondolin and wait, or he'll grow old without ever having a chance to join the fight. He has a conversation with Turgon that is persuasive enough to break the secrecy of Gondolin's location. And Turgon will himself join the fight at the end of the season. So, this is a very significant conversation. But what did Húrin gain from Gondolin?

Galdor will die somewhat young and suddenly. Presumably, we will have him die in a fight against Morgoth's forces. Húrin will take his father's place as leader of the people of Dor-lómin. How gung-ho is Húrin to go to war after his father's death? Is that his only motivation? And how on board are the people of his house with this course of action? Are they reluctant or doubtful, or fully supportive? Does it take another attack (such as the plague) to galvanize the people to action?

Naturally, Fingon and Maedhros will agree to form the Union of Maedhros for their own reasons. At what point does Fingon bring Húrin into the conversation, and what role does he play in organizing for the war?


We need to show a story that shifts from amdir (we can win this fight!) to estel (this fight will be won!) How will we do that in Húrin's case?
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I suggest that the Hadorians might be dubious of Húrin; he's spent part of his life not among them (with his family in Brethil and later in Gondolin), so they might not know him as well since he hasn't been there for a bit. Also, what is the context of the battle where Galdor is killed? It could be a point where Húrin earns his reputation and his people are compelled to follow him into battle until the Nirnaeth, like Dáin II at Azanulbizar where Dáin slew Azog when his father was killed. If it's an assault by Morgoth's forces, Galdor could be killed defending Barad Eithel or Eithel Sirion and Húrin drives the Orcs back (this could also be a convenient place to kill off Boldog).
 
David_M_R said:
I've just read the 1937 Quenta version of the (early parts of the) Túrin story, and it mentions explicitly that Túrin could speak Noldorin (this is before Thingol's Ban was a thing Tolkien thought of). This is not kept in the Narn, though, where it has Nellas teach him how to speak Sindarin in the style of Doriath. I don't have the library copy of War of the Jewels at the moment, so I can't check the Grey Annals, but I presume it wouldn't have Túrin speaking Quenya openly in Doriath! Not to mention that Noldorin became Sindarin, but that's an orthogonal issue.

In any case, Túrin might have learned Quenya from Húrin if the latter learns it in Gondolin.
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From memory the language ‘Noldorin’ morphed a bit in Tolkien’s writing between the variety of Quenya spoken by the Exiled Noldor that was heavily influenced by contact with Sindarin (think ‘Indian English’ with its Hindi and other Indian languages influences’) to a variety of Sindarin taken up by the Noldor after the Ban that was heavily influenced by the heritage language, Quenya (perhaps Yiddish is a decent analogy - a Germanic language that was influenced by the languages spoken by Jews before they took up (Medieval) German). I may be misremembering the details here. It’s not classical Quenya though.
 
on ‘War’ topic: I like the idea of Hurin’s vision/leadership style not being completely understood/accepted by the Hadorim initially for the reasons @Ange1e4e5 stated (been away from the Farm for too long, acquired strange customs, etc). Perhaps relationship with Morwen could help bridge the difference in some way (at least in dialogue between them). Hurin might have to learn some compromise. I also don’t want to sell Huor short. He was also in Gondolin but perhaps as the not-heir he can retain a different perspective and be more ready to understand where the ‘folk’ might be at in terms of making War on Morgoth.
 
Odola said:
Dor-lómin is under the ban and Sindarin speaking? Do not think it probable for Túrin to know Quenya as Húrin is seldom home, and why would he teach his toddler such an unused language? Morwen would probably not know Quenya either, having been born in Dorthonion?

What is more, Tuor knowing Quenya before coming to Gondolin seems improbable too, as Annael is a Greyelf. Tuor can make by using Sindarin at first but at one stage he will have to learn Quenya too. Pengolodh would be a good teacher for that task.
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Well, that depends on how thorough Thingol is with policing the Noldor regarding language.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Well, that depends on how thorough Thingol is with policing the Noldor regarding language.
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That is another matter. Noldor agreeing to give up their own language always seemed out of character, maybe it was some passive-agressive self-punishment? Or Quenya too much reminding them of their lost home and becoming to painful too się,? I do not think that Thingol considered policing his ban necessary, for him it was obvious that his word is law but why would the Noldor brother with his ban at all seems strange.
 
Odola said:
That is another matter. Noldor agreeing to give up their own language always seemed out of character, maybe it was some passive-agressive self-punishment? Or Quenya too much reminding them of their lost home and becoming to painful too się,? I do not think that Thingol considered policing his ban necessary, for him it was obvious that his word is law but why would the Noldor brother with his ban at all seems strange.
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I think for the non-Fëanoreans, adopting Sindarin was a nod to recognition of the Sindar being the dominant culture in Beleriand. Turgon and Finrod are probably the best exemplars of having kingdoms that brought Sindar and Noldor together, but there were SIndar in Hithlum and I imagine that Fingolfin and then Fingon did the same. Perhaps it was adopted as a acknowledgement their exilic status? I’m sure that the Fëanoreans kept speaking Quenya in their own domains.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
I think for the non-Fëanoreans, adopting Sindarin was a nod to recognition of the Sindar being the dominant culture in Beleriand. Turgon and Finrod are probably the best exemplars of having kingdoms that brought Sindar and Noldor together, but there were SIndar in Hithlum and I imagine that Fingolfin and then Fingon did the same. Perhaps it was adopted as a acknowledgement their exilic status? I’m sure that the Fëanoreans kept speaking Quenya in their own domains.
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Turgon partially and the people of Gondolin were mixed and Quenya was not explicitly banned there as far I remember. Gondolin seems to have been bilingual akin tor Belgium or Quebec, with Quenya being the courtly, scientifical and religious language, while the daily affairs were conducted mostly in Sindarin.
 
Notes

This session was all about Húrin and his family.

Huor
We developed a bit more of Huor's personality. We've said in the past that he needs to be a contrast to Húrin, while having a personality of his own that is not simply in reference to his older brother. So while Húrin is stubborn like immovable stone, Huor can be more flexible, like moving water. Now, we're exploring making Huor a contemplative man of few words. He supports his brother, but has a rather different viewpoint. Huor is going to embrace estel early on, while Húrin is still focused on winning the fight. It is only at the end, at Huor's death, that Húrin will take up the mantle of estel with his 'day shall come again.' Huor will find his hope in the beginning, during their sojourn in Gondolin.

Gondolin
We will be sending three young men from Brethil to Gondolin after the skirmish - Húrin, Huor, and their double first cousin Handir. This will allow us to give three different perspectives on Gondolin, leading to more nuanced reactions. This will be similar to the three ambassadors, the three types of Calaquendi, the three houses of the Edain, and the three types of hobbits. We get to see a story of encountering Faerie from three different perspectives. Huor will be the Vanyar-like one - he is experiencing wonder, and feels like he has stepped into Valinor, the land in the west that people search for but never reach. He's amazed and very taken, having a mountain-top experience. He's very happy with the news that they will never leave, as he's found a place he wants to be. Húrin will have a different reaction - the Noldor-like one. He's impressed by the tale of Fingolfin's duel against Morgoth, and he's inspired to do the same. He's thrilled and impressed and eager...but soon realizes that he cannot wait for an elven timescale. While he admires what he has seen, he wants to leave so that he can join the fight himself. Handir...wants no part of Gondolin. He dislikes living in a city, even a magical elven city, and he is uncomfortable there at all times. He wants to go home, and is the most broken up by the intial news thaat he will never be permitted to leave. He's the Teleri-like viewpoint. Naturally, the visitors will be changing Gondolin, too.

Morwen and Emeldir
Emeldir is 'the man-hearted' because the House of Hador accpets her as a leader, but think she is acting as a man. Morwen is her trainee, but does not garner the same respect or acceptance. She does inherit Narsil, though. Morwen agrees to marry Húrin, but...she's not really in love with him from the beginning. Húrin is thrilled to have this lovely wife, and he thinks he's doing everything right. But he does not treat her as a partner. It is only upon the death of Lalaith that Morwen and Húrin's relationship truly develops, and that is when he realizes he can rely upon her for strength and encouragement.

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So Handir will be accompanying Húrin and Huor to Gondolin?

As for Morwen, what about her does Húrin like and why does she agree to marry Húrin? Also, if Morwen receives Narsil, what allows her to keep it instead of it being taken by the Easterlings after the Nirnaeth?
 
Yes, Handir will go to Gondolin in Silm Film. This was one of Tolkien's earlier ideas, and allows us to spend more time with Handir as a character. We will present Handir as Húrin's peer, a leader of his own people.

We talked a little about Morwen and Húrin's relationship during the session. It will develop over the course of the season. We will have Huor and Rían for the young love/romantic crush type of story. Morwen's choice to marry (and Húrin's too) will be a bit more duty-bound.

We will discuss Narsil more later.
 
Scenes from Gondolin

Here are some suggestions for scenes that could happen in Gondolin this season. We could choose something different, but I wanted to start collecting the suggestions now so that they will be available by the time we get to planning those episodes (likely episodes 1 and 2 of the season, but we'll see how it works out).

Suggestions from the podcast session:
  • Huor praises Gondolin profusely, including speaking in wonder and awe about the images of the Trees that Turgon has constructed. Amidst this praise, Turgon is forced to recognize that, no, actually these images are but a pale imitation of the actual Two Trees in Valinor, which have been destroyed. In other words, Huor equating Gondolin with Valinor makes Turgon confront the reality that no matter how much he would like it to be...it is not.
  • Húrin being told the story of how Fingolfin confronted Morgoth and dueled to the death.
  • Handir refuses to eat the food when he first arrives, because he is freaked out by his encounter with Faerie.
  • Idril meeting Huor (who is a teenager at the time)

Additional suggestions:
  • One of the humans encounters Pengolodh in his library, and learn something of the history of Gondolin
  • Handir spends time outside the city walls, trying to feel less trapped. Huor finds him camping out, and they watch the stars together.
  • An elf confuses which human he is speaking to, as they all look the same (ie, have the same eyes).
  • When they are given new clothes to replace the outfits they arrived in (maybe worse the wear from battle and eagle transport), someone remarks that Huor (the youngest) appears to be an elf of 36 years, which he finds hilarious (a la Pippin and Beregond).
  • Húrin meets Maeglin and his guild who are advancing the craft of Gondolin
  • something something Glorfindel (our point of view character in this season's Frame story)
 
MithLuin said:
Scenes from Gondolin
[...] something something Glorfindel (our point of view character in this season's Frame story)
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He could check on the progress of the weapon technology in the armory and have the new blue-shining weapons explained to him...
 
Haerangil said:
Will we meet the child Littleheart?
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Ilfrin [Ilverin] Voronwenion the sailer-companion of Earendil - the gong-master
o.k. if
507​
Elwing comes to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril.​
511​
Gondolin refugees arrive at the Havens of Sirion.​
525​
Eärendil weds Elwing, Tuor and Idril depart for Valinor.​
534​
Eärendil searches for Valinor.​

Ilfrin cannot be born at the Havens, as he would not be 50 and of age before he sails away with Earendil
(which is when Elros and Elrond are just two years old - good that they are of elvish descent or they would not had any memory of their father)
and which is more Ilfrin would not be 50 before Voronwë sails with Tour and Idril.
So Ilfrin has be born in Gondolin at least. But Ilfrin Littleheart should have been an adult already, otherwise Voronwë would not have joined the sail-attempts with a minor son left behind? Voronwë is a full-blood elf and not Earendil, who leaves his wife's alone with small toddlers?
 
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