Script Discussion S07E09

So, yes-magic baby formula it is!
BTW, if you want Rian leaving Tuor behind more "excusable" in story, make her have no milk. This would be feasible biologically given her grief and overall bad shape, and would make her feel even more despondent. Her leaving the baby she cannot even feed is far more understandable - she would feel useless in addition to everything else.
 
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BTE, if you want Rian leaving Tour behind more" excusable" in story, make her have no milk. This would be feasible biologically given her grief and overall bad shape, and would make her feel even more despondent. Her leaving the baby she cannot even feed is far more understandable - she would feel useless in addition to everything else.
ouch! Poor Rían
 
ouch! Poor Rían
well, if we choose to go this route, the elves might try to convince her that she has to focus on life and stop clinging to grief, and that then they could help her with the lack of milk problem and "heal" her in this regard, but she is not ready to let go and move on and leaves instead...
 
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BTW, if you want Rian leaving Tuor behind more "excusable" in story, make her have no milk. This would be feasible biologically given her grief and overall bad shape, and would make her feel even more despondent. Her leaving the baby she cannot even feed is far more understandable - she would feel useless in addition to everything else.
Yes, I would assume we would make it so Rían's milk never comes in. That would tie in to the story of her despair, and she would not be abandoning her baby to starvation as they would have found another alternative at that point.


But Rían's story in this episode is that she is newly pregnant, and her husband is worried about her health due to the plague.
 
But Rían's story in this episode is that she is newly pregnant, and her husband is worried about her health due to the plague.
Not really sure why he would.? Medically knowledge would not be as progressed to assume a newly newly pregnant woman to be in some special danger here as such the assumed immune suppression in pregnancy is not is not yet assumed? ("The concept that pregnancy is associated with immune suppression has created a myth of pregnancy as a state of immunological weakness and therefore of increased susceptibility to infectious diseases." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025805/) Or is she suffering form severe pregnancy symptoms which make her generally weakened? Has she lost weight, is she unable to retain any food?
 
I don't think Huor's worry for Rían need come from any scientific understanding of immune systems in pregnancy. The plague itself would cause worry enough. If other people are very sick and dying around them, then this could be Huor's general sense of protectiveness and fear of losing the love of his life at that point.
 
I don't think Huor's worry for Rían need come from any scientific understanding of immune systems in pregnancy. The plague itself would cause worry enough. If other people are very sick and dying around them, then this could be Huor's general sense of protectiveness and fear of losing the love of his life at that point.
yeah, but it was specifically mentioned that her pregnancy is perceived as an additional risk for her during the plague and I do not see how or why given the time period and the then limited medical knowledge? The mere idea and concept of "immunity" should be yet completely foreign to their thinking.
 
Worry for loved ones during plague is natural. Worry for the elderly would be shown with Hareth. Worry for the young with Túrin and Lalaith. And Huor is going to be worried about his newly pregnant wife, but we are not going to have her catch the illness.
 
Worry for loved ones during plague is natural. Worry for the elderly would be shown with Hareth. Worry for the young with Túrin and Lalaith. And Huor is going to be worried about his newly pregnant wife, but we are not going to have her catch the illness.

To follow up on this, consider typical symptoms of early pregnancy - fatigue, paired with bouts of nausea. This is Rían's first pregnancy, so while this wouldn't exactly be a surprise to her, it is novel. And Huor has never had a pregnant wife before, so when she experiences the exhaustion or morning sickness, he would likely worry that she might be coming down with the plague (she's not, but he doesn't know that at first).
 
As a suggestion for how Aerin is related to Húrin, perhaps she's his cousin through Gundor, or possibly his grandmother Gildis? Those seem to be unknown sections of the family tree.

I forgot to update the family tree with another character we've introduced in Season 7. Gelir, son of Gundor, was the 'heir apparent' while Húrin and Huor were in Gondolin, and is their cousin. I have made him roughly the same age as them, so that he would have been about 14 years old when his own father was killed in battle.

So, yes, it's possible that Aerin could be a younger sister of Gelir? Gelir himself will be dying in the Nirnaeth, certainly during the last stand at the Fens of Serech, if not earlier in the battle.

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I forgot to update the family tree with another character we've introduced in Season 7. Gelir, son of Gundor, was the 'heir apparent' while Húrin and Huor were in Gondolin, and is their cousin. I have made him roughly the same age as them, so that he would have been about 14 years old when his own father was killed in battle.

So, yes, it's possible that Aerin could be a younger sister of Gelir? Gelir himself will be dying in the Nirnaeth, certainly during the last stand at the Fens of Serech, if not earlier in the battle.

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Is Gelir a character to cast? Or is he a "Sir Not Appearing?"
 
Is Gelir a character to cast? Or is he a "Sir Not Appearing?"
We included him in Episode 9 with a kitten for little Turin as a way of getting the plague from the East to the West. I believe he appears in other episodes as well but I can't remember where.
 
He is in episode 2 when Húrin and Huor return from Gondolin, and in episode 3 when they take part in the skirmish where Galdor is killed. He appears in one scene in this episode, and will likely appear in the coming battle scenes over the next few episodes. I am fine with adding him to the casting list. He should be a very typical House of Hador type - tall, blond - and roughly the same age as Huor and Húrin. He is a minor character, but appears throughout the season and has lines, so it's acceptable to consider him for casting.
 
Here is the outline for Season 7 Episode 9:

The Silmarillion Film Project
Season 7, Episode 9: Death of Laughter? (suggested title)

Central conflict:
Protagonist: Ulfang
A-Plot: News of the young dragons growing in Rivil’s Well reshapes the plan to attack Dorthonion.
B-Plot: The Plague strikes Dor-lómin and other human settlements. Death of Lalaith (3). Huor worries for pregnant Rían. Húrin deals with his daughter’s death and grows closer to Morwen in their shared grief.
POV: Húrin
C-Plot: Political situation in Doriath.
POV: Galadriel
Frame:
Timeline: FA 471

Episode Outline

Teaser: Dorthonion - Lowering clouds to the north (over the Anfauglith). Scouts from Brethil are exploring Dorthonion and discover young dragons living in a very corrupted Rivil’s Well. Handir gets this news to Beleg on the Marches of Doriath, and then a human delivers the message to Himring (show a map superimposed on screen at some point).

Act I : FA 471
Scene 1: Frame

Scene 2: Dor-lómin. Húrin and Gelir come back from a meeting with Fingon in Mithrim. Gelir gives Túrin a cat he got from the visiting dignitaries. Kids and Sador Labadal in the crowd. Húrin tells Morwen about Fingon’s new allies in the east - humans from over the mountains who have brought a large army.

Scene 3: Himring. Meeting of Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Azaghâl, Ulfang, and Imrach. Evil clouds looming. Condolences to Imrach - sick kid. Celegorm was recently scouting in east Dorthonion. Time to talk about the dragons - plural. Ulfang does not know what a dragon is and has questions. They try to explain to him what it is, and he’s not getting it - he gathers it is a dangerous beast, but the size is hard to explain…and this one can think and speak and outwit you. He is feeling the tension between his natural distrust of alien elves (their casual references to old history that they claim to have lived through), and his growing respect for their armies and strategies. The dragon situation forces the timeline to be moved up - pressure to get the weapons ready as soon as possible.

Scene 4: Dor-lómin. A dark cloud looms over Dor-lómin. Túrin (6 yo) has fallen ill. His parents are implementing a plan to coordinate efforts to help the sick as the plague spreads through Dor-lómin. Gathering medicine, distributing supplies, etc.

Act II :
Scene 5: Himring. Maedhros, Azaghâl, and Ulfang discuss the plans to take Dorthonion. Step one: Ulfang’s army will retake Ladros from the orcs who have set up a homebase there, which will give the forces of East Beleriand a staging area for the war. Ulfang wants to know what his next step will be, but Maedhros suggests that will be enough. They’ve got to move a smaller force into Dorthonion to take on the dragon anyway. Azaghâl talk about the weapons and armor they’ve developed to fight the dragon.

Scene 6: Dor-lómin. Mass burial scene. Funeral, wailing, bodies wrapped in cloth being lowered into graves (including small bodies of children). Húrin presiding. Wailing from the House of Húrin. Hareth, grief-stricken and bereft, exits the house. Húrin returns to his home, greatly concerned, and asks Hareth about Túrin. When he enters the house, he rushes into Lalaith’s room where Morwen is holding her body.

Scene 7: Doriath. Beleg and Galadriel meet while entering Menegroth. They meet with Thingol, Melian, Celeborn, Mablung, and Círdan? Galadriel’s news is the arrival of the Easterlings, and she’s happy to share it with Celeborn. Beleg mentions the baby dragons and the issues that rises for the war. Thingol says he already allows messengers to pass through Doriath. He doesn’t need to assist in the war. But will the girdle keep out dragons?

Scene 8: Himring. Azaghâl shows Ulfang the new kit his warriors will be wearing into battle. Ulfang is impressed, but shocked by how heavy their gear is. Azaghâl makes light of it (hah) saying that dwarves find such burdens light and are not slowed by the weight. He begins to brag about a forced march the dwarves made through mountainous terrain, and Ulfang realizes the differences.

Act III :
Scene 9: Dor-lómin. Húrin alone in the great hall. He tries to sing a song, but his voice fails. We see one of Lalaith’s discarded toys on the floor. We realize she has died. Húrin breaks his harp in frustration and anger and grief. He gets up and leaves, seeking out Morwen. Morwen is sitting quietly in the room where Lalaith died, staring at the empty bed. Húrin stops in the doorway, struggling to enter, exhausted by his grief. Morwen doesn’t look up at him. He crosses the room to her, and draws her into his embrace. He weeps in her lap. Weak Túrin enters the room, looking lost.

Scene 10: Himring. Ulfang seeks out Maedhros and tries to convince him to alter battle plans to incorporate some of his insights. He brings up the importance of hitting the young dragons at the same time as the main dragon, and suggests using the dwarven army to cross the rough terrain. Maedhros is pleased with this. Ulfang keeps trying to get a better size army

Scene 11: Doriath. Galadriel and Celeborn update each other and compare notes and reunite. Thingol makes an announcement. Beleg and Mablung are permitted to aid the King of the Noldor (Fingon) in a venture he is planning. Doriath (and the king) need not support this effort, but if any would like to support Beleg or Mablung personally, they may be permitted to do so.

Scene 12: Dor-lómin. Conversation between Huor and Húrin. Huor checks in with his brother, and Húrin asks after him. Huor admits that Rían has been having a rough time of it during her pregnancy, but she seems okay now (we see his own doubts and fears here). Húrin, in despair, asks how they can even fight such a foe who can reach into their houses and steal their loved ones? Huor reminds him that…you do. They’ve always known who Morgoth is, and that he is not some simple enemy to fight. It was always possible that this fight could end in defeat, but they can’t give in to darkness. They’re going to fight him because it’s the right thing to do, as it always has been. Whether or not we can win is in the hands of powers greater than we are, but Morgoth is not the only power in the world.


Act IV:
Scene 13: Himring. Ulfang and Maedhros. Ulfang asks Maedhros what his deal is - why do you want to fight this dragon? That sounds like a dangerous and nearly impossible task, and you only have one hand. Maedhros looks like the answer to that question is way too much, so he simplifies it down to - my father’s dying wish was that I fight Morgoth, so I will do that. Ulfang doesn’t see the connection between fighting Morgoth and fighting a dragon. Maedhros explains that he must defeat the dragon to fight Morgoth, so he will.

Scene 14: Dor-lómin. Húrin and Morwen have an intimate conversation. Húrin thanks Morwen for the strength she has shown and leant to him during these difficult days. He can’t imagine going through this with anyone other than her, and he is so grateful it was her by his side. She is a bit surprised by his candor, and responds with the question, where do they go from here? They have a conversation about moving forward together as Húrin and Morwen, husband and wife, Túrin’s family. They’re the lord and lady of Dor-lómin, but that isn’t who they are to each other fundamentally - they are persons who have chosen each other.

Scene 15: Himring. Ulfang and his sons. Ulfang is enthusiastic about their elven allies. He’s convinced that Maedhros is competent and that the plans for the war are good. Ulfang is not a great father, though, so does not anticipate how his sharing this news doesn’t really help his relationship with his sons. They feel jealous that this strange elf wins praise that they never will - Maedhros is clearly the son they cannot be.

Scene 16: Dor-lómin. Húrin and Morwen observe young Túrin interacting with Sador Labadal. Húrin approaches and talks to his son.

Tag: Frame
 
The biggest deviation we've made from the original season outline is to keep Ulfang around as a (living) character for a bit longer. We're involving him in the planning and execution of the Dorthonion campaign. The Easterling armies' first trial will be retaking Ladros (in the next episode).

Session 7-09 is where we discussed the Season Outline, and the part involving Uldor comes up beginning at the 1:44 min mark. (2:07 is where we get to the timing of the murder of Ulfang)


So, who decided that Ulfang's death should be in Episode 9? Corey Olsen. But what was important about this process is that we give Uldor and Ulfang enough time to figure out what the war against Morgoth is truly about. Ulfang turns true believer, while Uldor is more afraid of their demonic foe. I think that the two opportunities to see who Morgoth truly is prior to the Nirnaeth are the Plague (yeah, sure, it's not really Morgoth, but everyone thinks it is), and the fight with the dragons in Dorthonion. Prior to encountering these monsters, the war against Morgoth does not feel fundamentally different from a war against Men. So, if that's going to be pivotal to the betrayal, Uldor should see a dragon for himself at some point.

Timeline wise, the main request was that the patricide of Ulfang occur some time prior to the battle, so we need not have a situation where Uldor is trying to change the allegiance of the army while they're fighting. So, there are two options remaining.

In Episode 10, Ulfang could be injured superficially in the taking of Ladros. In the aftermath of the battle, Uldor could kill him. We then are primed for the betrayal story on the eve of battle.

Or, if Episode 11 is solely Western front content, then Episode 12 could begin with a step back in time on the Eastern front, which would be the entirety of Uldor's plot - kill Ulfang, blame the Elves, take control of the army, damage/destroy the dwarven siege equipment, and delay Maedhros. The episode would then end getting 'caught up' to where we'd left the Western front, to go into the final episode to finish the campaign.

Since I had to go back and check the content from that session anyway, I pulled a couple of posts about Uldor as reminders:
Just listened to the episode and I had a thought based on the discussion of why Uldor turns to the side of "the God in the North". If the Plague happens after the arrival of the Easterlings, what if that is actually the portent that convinces Uldor (and other Easterlings) that Morgoth is both real and powerful, and opens him up to Sauron's suggestion? I don't think this specific idea came up in the episode, but it seems like a natural convergence of various threads.

Also, if it hasn't been mentioned already, what if the proto-Breemen also call Morgoth "the North King", like the title the wildmen use in the tale of Tal Elmar? That could be a cool and subtle reference to insert.

Just listened through the episode and wanted to throw out a refined idea for Sauron's temptation of Uldor. To plant the initial seed of rebellion, what if Sauron comes not to Uldor by himself but rather Uldor and Ulfang. On the surface, his words could be directed at Ulfang, regarding his relationship to the Emperor of Bree. But, sub-textually, he's actually talking to Uldor, regarding his relationship with his father. The gist being along the lines of, "He doesn't appreciate all you've done for him and he never will. And now he's prepared to throw your life away to further his own ambitions. The God of the North knows how to repay his loyal servants. He won't let you become an elvish thrall" (etc.). Ulfang isn't moved at all and sends Sauron packing, and so the moment avoids undermining the sense of building Amdir. But later, closer to the battle, Sauron returns to Uldor alone and we realize Uldor was his target all along and his words have been slowly working on him - he just needs a final push from Sauron to go over the edge. Just a thought!

I really like this introduction of Uldor. Also, Uldor should have a confidant to talk to between the first approach from Sauron to Ulfang and his second approach to Uldor.
Since the sons of Ulfang will die, someone has to remain alive and claim the reward for the betrayal. I'd suggest Brodda (although it could be Sauron impersonating him).
In line with the Roman emperor's theme, maybe Sauron promises lands to the men but Morgoth replies like the Romans to the assassins of Viriathus: "Rome does not reward traitors" and sends them to Dor Lomin. Or maybe we can give that line to the Emperor of Bree while he is having tea with Sauron .
 
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A question about the most recent script discussion
If Ancalagon is the spirit of a Balrog possessing a pre-existing dragon, does he have two souls, and how does that not lead to some kind of split personality situation?
 
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