I was only able to listen to about twenty minutes of the last session live, unfortunately, so I do not know if there was anything said about the E01 script outline or not.
This is why Vairë's silence is such an important addition to her character - she *cannot* advise, and does not. She sees the outcome of the music more clearly than any other, but is powerless to attempt to convince someone of one course or another. Mandos' habit of speaking only sparingly, at the end of a debate, and at the express command/invitation of Manwë, is a similarly judicious use of their powers not being used to overwhelm others' autonomy. Galadriel's mirror is an excellent parallel to the tapestries of Vairë (and later Míriel), but I should remind everyone that the temptation to seize power over others is very strong for Galadriel - she passes Frodo's test, but it's not a given that she never would have accepted his offer. Galadriel is a Noldo princess who sets up a powerful realm for herself. She uses her Ring and her Mirror to further her own abilities. She would not be against the idea of personally challenging Sauron.Ok, so what I would like to point out on the Vairë issue is that she is not actually interfering here, any more than Galadriel is interfering when she shows Frodo and Sam the Mirror. She merely gives him an image, which is more or less her job amongst the Valar. It is an image of what shall be. What Finwë does with it is entirely up to him.
There was, but I just caught the tail end of it. Corey said he liked it, and mentioned the Finwë/Míriel stuff as good, but I didn't hear any of his comments, really.I was only able to listen to about twenty minutes of the last session live, unfortunately, so I do not know if there was anything said about the E01 script outline or not.
I was able to listen to some of it; he liked a lot of it, but wanted Ingwë to be a first generation elf or The First Elf, so he couldn't have lost his parents but someone else.There was, but I just caught the tail end of it. Corey said he liked it, and mentioned the Finwë/Míriel stuff as good, but I didn't hear any of his comments, really.
The reason it's Vairë:Perhaps one of the more active Valar could do something instead? Oromë? Or Aulë (you touched on this in the discussion but then moved over to Vairë)?
We're telling stories, expanding on a source. So long as we're not contradicting that source (without good reason), then I would say that in fact good storytelling is always the best choice. And we're not contradicting anything. What other factors could there possibly be other than good storytelling?Just saying that something is good storytelling doesn't make it the best choice.
No. It is about mythological function. The mythological function of Vairë, the Weaver, is to weave the story of the world. Just that.As far as I can make out your object comes down to this doesn't fit your interpretation of the Vairë character,
The point is, there are several ways to do good storytelling. It is perfectly possible to make the wrong decisions and still call it good storytelling.We're telling stories, expanding on a source. So long as we're not contradicting that source (without good reason), then I would say that in fact good storytelling is always the best choice. And we're not contradicting anything. What other factors could there possibly be other than good storytelling?
The big difference between that example and your outline idea is that in Delphi, there was a human oracle, speaking supposedly with words given by gods, and you are letting a deity engage by own initiative.Also, it keeps in with mythic oracular tradition. Remember the king who went to the oracle at Delphi and asked about an upcoming battle. The oracle said that a great army would be destroyed.
There is certainly a lack of direct divine intervention.The gods are still actively giving the oracle the prophecy just as Iluvatar give Vairë hers. There is no lack in divine initiative involved in the oracle of Delphi, at least not in myth
That would be a very interesting change, actually. If they meet in Lorien and she gives him this picture of him and Miriel together on that spot, the whole thing is much more ambiguous and less easily taken as a prophesy. I'm still not in favour of Vairë acting in this way, but this would be so subtle that I could live with it.I think we have built in enough autonomy to justify this action, but I will have to wait until the rest of the discussion is available to know how that will play out (hint hint )
I would want the following safeguards in place to preserve Finwë's autonomy. Finwë and Míriel are already engaged. They love each other, and yes, parted on bad terms, but that was not all we have seen of their relationship. Prior to seeing a tapestry, he has made it clear that he wants to move to Valinor, and his concern is whether or not he will be able to convince the other Noldor to come with him - specifically Míriel. Meanwhile, Míriel has made it clear that her choice is Finwë, and she will follow him to whatever end. His remaining reluctance is the thought that he will have to choose between Valinor and Míriel. The way she greets him upon his return makes it clear that she is happy to see him and not in need of a lot of 'convincing' (not exactly a 'you had me at "hello"' moment, but...you get the idea).
With this backdrop in place (and based on the skeletal outline, it seems to be), Vairë's action of showing Finwë an image of Míriel in Valinor merely reassures Finwë that he will be successful in getting her to join him there. Vairë is not promising Finwë a happy marriage or advising him to come to Valinor, so a lot more 'passive' than most oracles - just a vision left up to his own interpretation. Finwë's choices need to be his own. Finwë and Míriel will need to discuss moving to Valinor in Episode 3.
Perhaps we could have Vairë 'meet' Finwë in Lorien, so that she seeks him out in the same place he will ultimately lose his wife, and shows him the tapestry there? I have no idea what the structure of this part of the episode looks like, but it could be a brief moment between Finwë and Vairë without a lot of portentous lead-up. (I am fine with the significant look when she slips away from the Valar meet-n-greet; I more mean no one 'fetching' Finwë and taking him to Mandos.)