Session 1.10

Phillip Menzies

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Discussion questions for the next session 1.10 on 18th December 2015 are:

Each Session we need to ask:
  • What is the story arc for the next episode? / How much of the story are we going to get through in the episode?
  • What other longer term bits do we want to introduce/plant seeds for future episodes?
Specifically for next episode:
  • Growth of the Trees. We have to careful not to treat the awakening of the trees as its own self-explanatory event. How will it fit with the themes of the story? How can we contextualize?
  • How do we handle Melkor’s reaction to the trees? What do others see about what he’s thinking
  • Vague concepts about Namo, Irmo and Nienna, so we can fit The Trees and the Fëanturi together
  • Any other subplot ideas
As always check the notes for the last session 1.09 at http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/episode-1-9-finally-something-for-the-feanturi-to-do/ and the plot overview for season 1 at http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/episode-1-1-plot-overview/
 
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Haakon had put forward a fantastic idea about using Valinor to introduce the Feanturi, with them having been there this whole time, building their dwelling places. They have a clearer idea of their place in the 'Music' than any of the other Valar, and would be making the appropriate preparations. The other Valar could even be unaware of what they have been doing this whole time, which would allow us to show the viewers without weird exposition from the frame.

Melkor's reaction to the trees: He could perhaps see the mingling of light while both trees are active from atop Utumno and be stewing every time that light reaches across the sea. He might even feel like it is being withheld from him personally. This is a very natural reaction. Think about how you feel when your neighbor is having a party or barbecue, and you have received no invitation. Adding Melkor's resentment on top of that and you already have the seeds of his plot to take the light of the trees. He's just not sure how yet.

Fitting Namo, Irmo, and Nienna into the plot: When the Valar arrive in Valinor, if the Feanturi are already there, they can be the ones who begin to suggest a source of living light that they saw in the music. Nienna is quite easy to fit in, as she is instrumental to the creation of the trees, along with Yavanna and Varda.
 
I feel like I'm still in the dark regarding the lighting. Our co-hosts have stated that there are stars, and yet there was talk about sequences in total darkness. I guess I personally favour the latter scenario but the important thing is that we make a choice.
I like Nicholas' ideas. The description of Melkor will lead to the killing of the trees smoothly.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot that Varda had made some stars already. I'll be quiet about the stars now. :)
 
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I would think the sequence of total darkness immediately following the destruction of the lamps would be smoke thrown up from the burning of the land and what foliage has emerged in the wake of the lighting of the lamps. Nobody is really around to see the actual toppling of the lamps and I really can't imagine a better way to cut to commercial than with a billowing plume of smoke born upon the East Wind blowing alarmingly quickly over the stars, which have faded back into view as the day of the lamp-light has retreated into the North. Having finally listened to Episode 8, I'm really enjoying the idea of a personal luminescence that was sacrificed by the Valar and Maiar that they sort of panic without in the ensuing darkness, emphasizing their becoming accustomed to their forms and functioning poorly in the wake of any changes to the status quo. That may ultimately not be a great idea for us to follow too hard, but if we do, it works kind of great on screen here, I think. It would even open the door for Melkor to come and help assuage their panic with actual light, bringing them fire. I'm sort of thinking that Varda would withhold her light cautiously in the moments immediately following the coming of the darkness, wanting to avoid calling attention to herself and the other Valar, I dunno. I any case, I'm not having trouble with the darkness itself, that seems pretty easy to explain.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Haakon had put forward a fantastic idea about using Valinor to introduce the Feanturi, with them having been there this whole time, building their dwelling places. They have a clearer idea of their place in the 'Music' than any of the other Valar, and would be making the appropriate preparations. The other Valar could even be unaware of what they have been doing this whole time, which would allow us to show the viewers without weird exposition from the frame.

Melkor's reaction to the trees: He could perhaps see the mingling of light while both trees are active from atop Utumno and be stewing every time that light reaches across the sea. He might even feel like it is being withheld from him personally. This is a very natural reaction. Think about how you feel when your neighbor is having a party or barbecue, and you have received no invitation. Adding Melkor's resentment on top of that and you already have the seeds of his plot to take the light of the trees. He's just not sure how yet.

Fitting Namo, Irmo, and Nienna into the plot: When the Valar arrive in Valinor, if the Feanturi are already there, they can be the ones who begin to suggest a source of living light that they saw in the music. Nienna is quite easy to fit in, as she is instrumental to the creation of the trees, along with Yavanna and Varda.
Click to expand...

Not super jazzed on that bolded point, Nicholas, it seems a little bananas that Yavanna would need the trees prophesied to her like that. Doesn't work for me at all. I dig Melkor's response to the trees a lot, though; he should absolutely feel personally attacked here. He had the lamps thrown down to teach everyone a lesson and show them they were useless without him, and now they've gone and made the light anew in his absence AND it doesn't really reach him all the way up there in the frozen North? Unacceptable.

If you want to get Namo in on maybe doing some prophecy, I could certainly see him making a suggestion for where they ought to build Valmar, maybe. The idea I had for Namo, Irmo, and Nienna doing things went back to Vaire: the weaving of the first tapestry, which, per Prof. Olsen's spit-balling, would be sort of the medium through which Mandos reads the future. I'm trying to work the timing out in my head, but I guess we could basically have the Valar decide "okay, we're leaving this site of destruction at the base of the northern lamp to withdraw to the Western Contient", but once they arrive be at a bit of a loss for where to start. Vaire sits down and begins to weave and as she weaves, Mandos pronounces his "reading"as it were. Is that crap television? (I'll be honest, I'm not super proud of it.)

It seems somewhat of a no-brainer that doomsaying and rest would both be important to the Valar at this point, but how else could we work them in right now? Is Lorien doing any work on the rest of Arda at large? Isn't it kind of hibernating with the Valar withdrawing to what will become Valinor? I guess he really can't be doing too much or it wouldn't be much of a withdraw, would it....

Maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves. What exactly do we want to accomplish with Irmo, Namo, and Nienna? Healing grief would seem to be the general response to that question, considering who we're dealing with, but how mopey do we want the Valar to seem? They abscond to Valinor and immediately get to lamenting what's just been lost? What does proper mourning for this situation look like? Am I even on the right track with "Healing Grief"?
 
I don't know if anyone has ever seen the film Inside Out. It is a little existential for a children's movie, but more relevantly: the character of 'Sadness' helps characters in the film deal with loss by allowing them to cry, to _feel_ sorrow. I would like to see a scene like that involving Nienna. They may not even know how to react in their grief until she shows them.

I don't know just how 'bananas' having other characters helping Yavanna come up with the idea for the Trees is, especially those that have such grasp of the Music and Eru's will. I feel that having that be part of the 'reading' of Vaire's tapestries that you mentioned won't be stepping on the nature Vala's toes too much.
 
Remember that the Trees shoot out of the ground when Yavanna is singing in the Ring of Doom, a place that might have a strong connection with Mandos.
 
It's bananas to me because of how the trees are described in the exceedingly personal terms following their destruction. *Yavanna* cannot create them again. Like, only her. They were her great work and cannot be replicated. In the Published Silm, they're personal in a way the lamps very much aren't. Having them prophesied gives them an impersonal air of "destiny" that sort of tramples all over the complex nature of fate and free will that exists in Tolkien's work and definitely cheapens any sort of artistic, creative work in my mind.

Edit: I think it's telling that basically none of the "great works" of any of the characters are fore-told to their creators in this way. Dwarves. Trees. Silmarils. The Black Sword. There's no prophesy that tells these creators "you will create the greatest such and such", they have these moments of inspiration and creative effort and, holy cow, nothing is ever the same again.
 
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I'm thinking we don't want a clear prediction of the shaping of the trees, and maybe no prediction at all. The storytelling would suffer from it. But Namo could be involved anyway. Manwë and Namo could arrange the Ring of Doom together and when it's finished one of them could ask Yavanna to inaugurate it. There could be other Valar or Valier involved in that ceremony, which could culminate with the Trees.
 
A fair point, Ouzaru, however vehemently made. I don't feel that getting a nudge from Mandos would take anything away from Yavanna, but I can see where you're coming from.

The Feanturi can still have a guiding influence on the establishment of Valinor, and Mandos can confirm Manwe's lordship. I really do enjoy the idea of introducing them at this point, rather than have them sit around in the background the past few episodes.

Nienna has her moment now also, helping the Valar deal with the grief and loss of the lamps. A great deal of Yavanna's creatures and plants were destroyed.

I'm thinking as I'm typing, so here's what I see. Yavanna is the most grief-stricken, and Nienna comes to her to help her deal with her grief. Out of tears comes a song. The song moves from sorrow and into joy, out of which the trees spring, while the other Valar look on.
 
This later introduction of (some of) the Valar will have implications, so we have to make sure we're okay with all of them.

I think we can get away with Irmo and Námo (and their wives), as we didn't really have a role for them earlier, and their nature is such that they could be quietly working in the background all along. They can bring up the point that they are 'preparing for the coming of the Children'. They also are unique in being tied to their particular lands in Valinor so closely as to take the name of the land.

But introducing Nienna only now would be problematic later on (possibly). She is the one who will plead for the Valar to show mercy to Melkor and unchain him after his appointed sentence is up. While it is possible that she 'believes' his repentance, it is more likely that she just wants to give him the chance to repent. Regardless, if she *wasn't there* in Almarin, and never interacted with Melkor, will the others think her words hold any weight? Wouldn't she just be dismissed as 'you don't know the dangers of this guy?'

This is less of a problem for Mandos - he knows all sorts of things that he wasn't there for (and haven't happened yet), so....personal experience is less important in his case. I mean, his symbol is the sun in eclipse...and there is no sun or moon yet. Same with Lórien - he is dreams and desires, which must be tied to reality, yes, but not the-world-as-it-is. Estë is about a restful haven and her only role will be the death of Míriel (unless we give her some other role?) Vairë, like Mandos, knows stuff she has no business knowing. Everywhere and nowhere would be her vision, so again, personal experience is irrelevant.

But Nienna, being all about Pity and Mourning and Lament, is *entirely* about experiencing things in a deeply personal way. She's the phenomenologist of the Valar. She needs to be there to share in the experience of everything (at least in my view). Perhaps she visited Valinor earlier on and met Námo and Irmo before the others, but she has to be 'with' the Valar from Episode 2, I think.
 
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Yes, I agree that Nienna should be there from the beginning. I'm suggesting, however, that she will come into her own more after the destruction of the lamps and the abandonment of Almaren. It would be interesting if many of the other Valar see her as kind of a wet blanket up until this point, and that they only realize just how important she is now.
 
Sorry if I came off there as hostile, I certainly didn't mean to project that, though in seeing your response and re-reading my own posts I realize my over-the-top approach might be misinterpreted. :( Apologies.

I'm totally into Nienna's role as you described it, Nicholas, as well as the other ideas for Irmo and Namo.

What I'm hearing though, is really a lot of confusion about who we will have seen at this point. I'm starting to wonder about how exactly the Valar relate to one another. Would it even be possible that they wouldn't know each other "on sight" as it were?　It seems a little difficult to believe that they wouldn't know about every one of their peers that comes into Arda.

I don't really have time to get into it now, I'll come back when I get home tonight and edit this.
 
Text is funny that way. All good.

I agree that they would certainly all know about one another, though whether or not they would recognize each other immediately is another matter.

Brings this to mind, though:

When I was a child, my grandmother was explaining heaven to me. She said that when she and I were both in heaven, she would look young again, as if we were the same age. When I asked her how I would recognize her, she told me I would just know. I imagine that the Valar would do the same, to be honest, but having a brief introduction helps us in a visual presentation of the 'newcomers' if we go that route.

From what we've been talking about, the following is the order in which the Valar arrive (in our story, if not into Arda):

Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Nienna, Nessa, Orome, and Varda arrive at the beginning, all at once.
Melkor arrives solo.
Tulkas arrives to help with ... whatever he's helping with now, I'm confused.
Irmo, Namo, Vaire, and Este are waiting for them when they arrive in Valinor.
 
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I said I was gonna get back to this thread and then my weekend was over in a flash. I'll take another stab at it when I get off work in a couple hours.

That is definitely a thing we need to bring up in the podcast on Friday, then. I kind of dig the idea that we can kind of introduce sets of characters, go through four or five episodes focused on a handful and then bring in another handful. We might even be able to do that one more time with Maiar like Osse. I'll take a look at the episode breakdown and mebbe come up with a pitch for each "installment" of new characters, we might be able to do a couple more than just the Feanturi and their wives.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Melkor's reaction to the trees: He could perhaps see the mingling of light while both trees are active from atop Utumno and be stewing every time that light reaches across the sea. He might even feel like it is being withheld from him personally. This is a very natural reaction. Think about how you feel when your neighbor is having a party or barbecue, and you have received no invitation. Adding Melkor's resentment on top of that and you already have the seeds of his plot to take the light of the trees. He's just not sure how yet.
Click to expand...

I think there is more to be done with Melkor at this point. And I think we must bring in Sauron here. Let's have Mairon come over to Middle-earth, perhaps along with Aulë, who seems to go there from time to time (after all, it will be in Middle-earth that he shapes the dwarves). He could look for Melkor, well, he could just go to Utumno, and tell Melkor of what has been going on in Valinor. I'm particularly thinking of the Pelóri Mountains of Defence. They will be a signal to Melkor that Manwë is considering hostile action. So, as a reaction to this, he decides to build Angband. My suggestion is that he does this in sectret, and that it takes him some time, so that the fortress is finished when Sauron defects after Aulë has repented.
 
Here is the rundown of where we are:


  1. Music (Melkor’s initial rebellion), Vision - Episode mostly used to introduce frame story
  2. Arrival in Arda, establishment of Almaren (introduction of characters) Tulkas’s arrival - Introduce main Valar: Manwë, Varda, Aulë, Yavanna, Nienna, Ulmo, and...? More frame story, but the focus is on 'calming' the earth and making sense of the chaos, getting the different Valar to work together and cooperate
  3. Melkor: Seeking the Flame Imperishable, Varda rejection, secret coming to Arda, establishment of Utumno - Melkor-centric episode
  4. Melkor comes among the Valar: Manwe, Varda - Tensions rise! Melkor tries to take over leadership.
  5. Building of the Lamps – Leadership tension (Sauron) - Tulkas and Nessa meet Ungoliant...and oh yeah, Lamps
  6. Destruction of Lamps - Wedding of Tulkas and Nessa, Rebellion of the Valaraukar - Arien leaves Melkor's allegiance
  7. Establishment and fortification Valinor - Introduction of Mandos, Lorien, Vairë and Estë...back to the frame
  8. Development of Valinor, intro rest of Valar, some Maiar - Light the Trees *this episode**
  9. Rebellion of Osse, repentance
  10. Aule and the Dwarves
  11. Yavanna and the Ents, Eagles: Yavanna and Orome in Middle-earth
  12. Varda and the Constellations: Anticipation of Firstborn (Mandos)
  13. War, Chaining of Melkor (Middle-earth will now be a place of strife) “The War to Begin All Wars.”
 
Yes, so the building of Angband would only begin this episode and continue secretly for a couple of episodes.
 
So, to clarify, it would seem that we are leaning towards the location of Utumno being revealed to Aule and Sauron at this point, but news of the fortification of Valinor leads Melkor to decide to raise a secret fortification of his own, which he will place under Sauron's command after he defects. Utumno will be a palace, a monument to Melkor's 'lordship', while Angband will be much more 'Baradur'-like. Is this what we're thinking?
 
Yes, I would suggest that. I'm Thinking only Sauron should discover Utumno; maybe Aulë is somewhere else.
 
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