Session 1.3

Phillip Menzies

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Questions for next episode

○ How are we going to introduce the frame?

○ How will we depict the Music of the Ainur,

○ How do we connect the Music of the Ainur to arrival of the Valar in Arda
 
Ok, still a fan of a Death of Arathorn Cold Open, but that was decided against due to the time skip so ... I'm going to have to do two different versions of the Ainulindale episode outline. :rolleyes:

That said, if we're _not_ doing that, I see the curtain opening on a candle, calling to mind the Flame Imperishable. A candle held by a young boy who is wandering through a chamber in Rivendell surrounded by tapestries depicting scenes from the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta. He hears someone coming and blows out the candle as a choir of elves pass by.

I dunno, it's a shot in the dark.
 
I can't quite get my head around an opening, but I have thought of a closing to the episode.

Estel looks at Elrond (or whoever has told him the tale) and says "I wish I could hear the music, it sounds so beautiful,"
Elrond continues "and terrifying at the same time."
Estel asks, "Can the minstrels play it in the Hall of Fire tonight?"
"I am sorry Estel, that cannot be. None of the races have the ability to play 'the Music'. It is beyond our skill." Estel slumps. "But it is said that the echo of the music can be heard in water for Ulmo was instructed by Iluvatar in music deeper than any of the Valar. That is one reason why we elves long for the sea. But Ulmo's presence is in all water and If you listen closely even here far from the sea in Imladris you may hear it." Estel's eye's widen.
Cut to Gilrean calling out for Estel at sunset. She asks a passing elf if they have seen him. They answer "he was seen by the waterfall earlier today."
She says with exasperation "Again? He has been there every day for the past two weeks. I wonder what he does there?"
Cut to Estel sitting in meditation by the waterfall. The camera slowly zoom in on his face and the soundtrack quietly builds. He opens his eyes and his look says he heard the echo.
 
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Good ideas.
Ok I haven't had the opportunity to listen to the latest episode but clearly the idea of introducing the frame through the death of Arathorn was discarded. Fair enough, it might have been a bit jacksonian in the way it compressed time.
Since I haven't listened to the episode my thoughts about this are perhaps a bit irrelevant, but I had an idea about the introduction of the frame I'd like your opinion on:
What about a map? For me, Tolkien's maps are essential. Let's say we begin with a view of eastern Middle Earth from above. The one we know. Not a map though but like a satellite view. Then we zoom in. And as we get closer and closer, we hear a voice, a young boy, who asks questions: "Lord Elrond, How did the world begin? How was it created? Who created it?" and so on, not all at once but with pause, giving us time to register both the questions and the view, and we zoom in closer and see the sea and the coastline, and the mountains and fields. And we fly along the Misty Mountains, perhaps we pass Orthanc or the ruins of Ost-in-Edhil, but mostly we see wilderness, and after a while we dive down into the hidden vale of Imladris and its elven houses, and we see two figures on a balcony, and as we get so close that we see that the two figures are Elrond and the young boy, Elrond says "in the beginning there was Eru, the One". Then he could comment: "Estel, I think it's time for your education" or something like that (something better, preferably).
In this sequence we can have Estel's true identity a secret, and he could only later be identified. So, we will experience his growing knowledge of his ancestry along with him as the season develops.
 
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As far as depicting the Music, I know that we wanted to avoid voiceover, but this is the one instance I can see it being the best way.

To start with, I should like to see an Elvish 'recreation' of the Music to start with, though it would be acknowledged that it is but a poor copy. When Estel asks what the music means, he is told the story, which we see visually in an abstractish form as the voiceover goes through it. We could tell the story through just the music and the visual, with Illuvetar's voice coming through during his speaking parts, but I feel that not giving Tolkien's description in voiceover, at least in part, would be something of a crime.

Connecting it to the Valar in Arda seems like a simpler matter. Estel is under the impression that the whole thing was accomplished through 'magical' means in the song, but no, the Valar had to come here and build the world in accordance with the song.
 
A problem with the music that makes it nearly impossible for the elves to recreate is that a prominent feature was Melkor's contribution. I think they could give us a hint of the rest -we could have a really good choir, some great musicians, it would be heavenly and although not close to the Ainulindalë, we'd get the feeling - but the elements Melkor brought? Would the elves even want to play that?
Still, I agree that some sort of musical hommage to the Music should be included, played by the elves. Maybe a theme that is supposed to capture a certain aspect, like "the lament of Nienna" or "Manwës Windpipes" or something like that.
 
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Some great stuff in the last episode! I love the idea of Bilbo connecting with Estel. And the Gilraen-Elrond situation.

I think my vision of the opening could work well with the idea of Estel looking at a mural in the beginning. We just have the camera continue flying into a house through a door or a window, and then down a hallway into a gallery where we find Estel watching the mural with Elrond beside him.

I think the Music could be implicated in the ways described above. If we are going to depict it visually I suggest some kind of flashback.

If we begin with darkness and Eru speaks his "Eä!" and then we see Ainur taking physical form as well as Eä and we see them discover it and their joy in the elements. There, in their work, there could be lots of opportunities for flashbacks, as the Ainur remember what went on before they were given form. These flashbacks could be limited by the fact that they now are bound to their new physical being, and so we can perhaps accept that their memories are influenced by this - I mean they could remember ainulindalë and those other things as if they had their physical forms, or some shadowy, warped versions of them.
 
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Introducing the Frame
  • In thinking about this, Corey spoke about having some reason for starting Estel's education. Estel will need his own story arc for season 1. We could portray it this way. Gilraen and Estel have been displaced. They are not living among their own people, the elves are quite alien (but not unfriendly) and they don’t fit. Estel could be portrayed as a troubled child at the beginning of the season with him playing tricks on the serious elves, throwing rotten fruit at Lindir, using a home-made toy bow and arrow to shoot Elladan in the bottom, that kind of thing. Elrond insists to Gilraen that he cannot be allowed to continue as a wild thing but needs to learn about the world and his heritage. The tension between Gilraen and Elrond about Estel being raised as an elf could come part way through the season as Estel starts to toe the line and goes too far the other way by expresses a desire to be an elf. Anyway in the opening episode after being busted for playing a trick on the elves he goes to hide in a secret place, which just so happens to have the tapestry that Trish spoke about and Elrond is waiting there for him (there are no secrets from Elrond in Rivendell). Thus his education begins in an impromptu fashion as Estel perceives it. I feel that just having Estel gazing at a tapestry is too passive.
  • As to how to segue from the tapestry to the episode story, I was thinking of basics and what elves and humans have in common. They are both the children of Iluvatar but more than that, if I am reading it right, every being that has thought and can self-determine has the flame imperishable inside (Iluvatar spoke to the Ainur “And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable” so the Ainur have the flame, and my reading of the tale of Aule and Yavanna has me think that Iluvatar gave the dwarves the gift of the Flame Imperishable when they thought for themselves). So the depiction of the tapestry can be that every being in it has a spark at its core which is the Flame Imperishable and this is the way into the story for Estel and Elrond. So the "lesson" for Estel could be that elves and humans are more alike than not and are considered as high as the Ainur in Iluvatar's eyes as he gave the gift of the Flame Imperishable to all. Then the episode ends with my previous suggestion of Estel hearing the echo of The Music in the waterfall.
The Music of the Ainur
  • There is so much that has already been posted on how we do the Music of the Ainur. I would like the episode to contain all of the following: Iluvatar as the One before the Ainur, the coming forth of the Ainur from Iluvatar’s thought, the Ainur singing individually in simplicity and then together becoming more complex with some depiction of individual Ainur before moving on to The Music. In the depiction of The Music we may have to depart from the separate depiction of music – vision – Ea and combine the music with the vision. This will better show the vision connected to the music and make the scene more interesting than just showing the Ainur singing, and then we follow it with the world being brought into being.
Transition from The Music to the arrival of the Valar in Arda
  • I think the episode should end with the Ainur just about to enter Arda. A common feeling on the forums is that depiction of pre-Arda should have a different style to the rest of the series so I feel it would be jarring to move into a different medium within the same episode. Anyway the story of the great works of the Valar in Arda is its own story.
 
I am going to post something which I have a feeling will be very controversial and may be considered blasphemy to many out there. I think we should do without the narration for the Music of the Ainur.
There I have said it, now let me explain.

I think Elrond's narration can lead into it at the beginning and lead out of it at the end, but not continue throughout. It will be difficult to break away from this because this is all we know. Even the two adaptions I know of - Evan Palmer Comics (Trish gave a link in discussion for episode 0.1) and the new Youtube animation "Ainulindale" by Willow Productions (thanks for the link Winrobee http://mythgard.org/forum/index.php?threads/iluvatar-and-the-valars-melodies.46/ ) - both use a voice-over narration similar to the text. Now we are doing a drama and there is plenty of drama in the Ainulindale and I believe the music, the images and the script can say it all. We can begin to explore the personalities and the interplay between the characters right from the very beginning. We have the whole of the first episode to begin to show each of the Valar and their themes and imagery connected to them and some interaction between various Valar before we even get to the music (cue a duet between Tulkas and Nessa pre-Arda). I've said it before, let's put aside our belief in the idea of a "sacred text", which is easy to do for the Ainulindale because if its high and formal style. It is a story about creativity, self-expression, pride, sorrow and exhilaration. Let's show that on screen. I understand Corey wants to leave the meat of Melkor's story to a later episode but that's okay. We can be vague with Melkor and show him disappearing into the void but have all the action in episode 1 take place only in the Timeless Halls within the light of Iluvatar's face with no narrator.
 
Phillip I really like your ideas on story arc for Estel.
I also agree that we should do Ainulindalë without voiceover. I think the Music should be presented either as a story told by a person we see (for example Elrond telling Estel while they stand by a mural), or implicated by elven music or waterfalls and such, or directly but without voiceover narration.
But without voiceover and without discernable actors we need to anchor the doings of Eru and the Ainur in some way, otherwise we will have like at least half an hour of television that will certainly be poetic and beautiful, but I'm afraid it might risk being very hard to follow. That's why I think we need to break it up into portions and have it presented in flashbacks, and go to the Eä moment first. That way, each sequence will be easier to understand.
 
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Haakon said:
Phillip I really like your ideas on story arc for Estel.
I also agree that we should do Ainulindalë without voiceover. I think the Music should be presented either as a story told by a person we see (for example Elrond telling Estel while they stand by a mural), or implicated by elven music or waterfalls and such, or directly but without voiceover narration.
But without voiceover and without discernable actors we need to anchor the doings of Eru and the Ainur in some way, otherwise we will have like at least half an hour of television that will certainly be poetic and beautiful, but I'm afraid it might risk being very hard to follow. That's why I think we need to break it up into portions and have it presented in flashbacks, and go to the Eä moment first. That way, each sequence will be easier to understand.
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Haakon, can you flesh out your idea of doing the Ea moment first and how the episode would play out. I'm having difficulty visualizing it probably because my head is too full of my own ideas.
 
Ok Phillip, I'll try.
We want as much as possible of the Ainulindalë in visual form, right? But the Ainur don't have sight until Eru makes the Music into a vision. And we don't want VoiceOver.
So, first we have the frame narrative. In the frame, we see Elrond begin educating Estel. This begins with some lesson about Eru and the Music, which of course intrigues us (and Estel) but feels a bit abstract. "Was their Music like this music?" - but Elrond says, "not quite". He perhaps says it can be felt in a waterfall, seen in the clouds, and so on.
From this it gets tricky. We want to leave the frame and leave this situation where one person is telling another person stuff. We need to get to the beginning. The problem is, the beginning is in three parts. First, the Music. Then the Vision. Finally, Eä. Maybe it's braver to just do it all in one long go, but I feel the Ainulindalë has something to gain by being told in flashbacks, and the first part is still sound only, so my suggestion is that Elrond describes the vision briefly and then goes to the Eä moment. We're then directly thrown into the birth of the world, and then we see the Ainur enter and take their forms (which resemble their memories of the Children of Ilúvatar from the vision), and find the things that seem to be things they themselves devised in the Music, as Eru said. They get to shaping Arda, which at first I picture as a bit chaotic; Ulmo revels in rain and wave making, Manwë is flying high in the sky, and Aulë and his followers pull and push heavy matter into land, into islands, into mountains. And as they get into their love for the elements, their physical form is affected by those elements, so that Ulmo gets more and more "oceany" and so on. After a while the first (sub)creative rush subsides and there must come a need for reflection, a time for the Ainur to communicate and maybe do some planning, and so, while they continue their playful work, they might show each other different ideas and cooperate, like Manwë perhaps sweeps down, joining Ulmo in creating waves, or Aulë could help making fjords; and they might say to each other, "it's like the Music, remember?" or "the Vision is made real!" And we get a flashback from Ainulindalë. Or they could reflect and say something like "This is Eru's work, his creation, but just like in the Music, we can adorn it after our own heart". Now the flashback can be pretty extensive here, I think. The difference, compared to beginning with the Ainulindalë, is that in this way, we begin when the Ainur is visible. They have bodies. And we can use this as a pretext to sneak in some visual effects into the parts of Ainulindalë which otherwise are just sound. (And in the Vision I believe only the Vision, not the Ainur, are visible?)
One logical ending fpr the episode would be the Vision. In it we see what the Ainur are longing for and anticipating through the season - the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar; it's the theme of the season.

Now I hope I've been at least slightly clearer. I'm happy to elaborate if necessary.
 
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I do feel that we lose something by not seeing the Ainulindale as a sequence, though. Also, while Tolkien states that the Ainur could not see before the Vision was given to them, that does not mean that there was nothing _to_ see. Remember that the Imperishable Flame, the light, was always with Iluvatar, and therefore also in the Ainur.
 
Yes the
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I do feel that we lose something by not seeing the Ainulindale as a sequence, though. Also, while Tolkien states that the Ainur could not see before the Vision was given to them, that does not mean that there was nothing _to_ see. Remember that the Imperishable Flame, the light, was always with Iluvatar, and therefore also in the Ainur.
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We might lose something telling it in flashbacks, certainly. And yes, probably there was something to be seen in the Timeless halls when the Ainur made their music. Of course, the Flame Imperishable for one thing. In another thread I suggested the idea that we could see that, and see how Eru puts the Flame into the Ainur. But I believe we either need VoiceOver or voices for the greater part of the Ainulindalë, because the story will be hard to understand otherwise. I still think that Ainur without bodies, although visible (perhaps like lights or coloured clouds or whatever - not antropomorphic, since that comes after seeing Eru's vision of the Children) should have voices. Voices in that context seems to me as something that is added afterwards, either by the elves or, since the elves haven't entered our story yet, by the Ainur themselves after taking bodies that have voices. And I'm currently not in favour of voiceover so that's why I'm suggesting the narrative order roughly outlined above. But I'm definitely open to being convinced to change my mind.

EDIT: I edited a bit to clarify.
 
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Another thing: If we do the Ainulindalë with the Ainur having some kind of bodies or features looking something like it, which will be more possible if we do it the way I propose, with the Ainur's memories tainted by their present state, we don't run the risk of depicting it like it's some kind of version of Big Bang, which I think would be a pity. It will be more of a myth, which I recognise as being risky but I believe could be managed.
 
After reading your post Haakon, thinking on it for a day or so and going back to the text I can see why we are not imagining the same thing. I interpret the lines "giving to them sight where before was only hearing" completely differently. But let me digress. We are dealing with something fundamentally abstract as the Timeless Halls are effectively a spiritual existence, hence all the references others have made to Fantasia and other great music and abstract visuals, but Tolkien wrote it using visual imagery "Iluvatar arose", "he lifted up his left hand". In other words his actions were observed (visual), the Timeless Halls are timeless and the void boundless, but it needs to be described in a way that us mortals can understand being limited by time and space. Going back to the original point, the full quote is " 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing". I interpret this as being he now showed to them the vision (giving to them sight) which was a personification of their music (where before was only hearing), not that before this point the Ainur could not see. Before this point they could see (whatever "seeing" is in a spiritual dimension) but now they were seeing what they had created. I am assuming that your wish to start at the Ea moment was in response to the lack of visuals you were envisioning before the vision (I hope that made sense).

This is why I am suggesting that the we portray the Music and Vision together. Link the two for the audience so they see the direct link that the music has in effect created the world with all its history. Have Iluvatar speak of their act of creation before the Music begins, include dialogue throughout the music for we do not want it to be too abstract. The inclusion of dialogue will also help the audience to understand what is happening. Sometimes due to time constrains in adaptions things get joined together or play out at the same time whereas in the book they were quite separate. I think this is a situation where that should be the case. At the conclusion of the Music the Vision also disappears, and then we have Iluvatar's speech and the "Ea" moment. I believe that visuals are fundamentally necessary to tell this story in the visual medium of Television.
 
Thank you Phillip. Ok I'm almost convinced, you've at least partially won me over (and maybe all the way). Part of the reason for my position in this matter has to do with the interpretation of the lines you have quoted. And you're probably right, the new thing about the vision was probably not that it was the first time the Ainur could see, it was just that the Music was made visible. So far I'm definitely with you now. Your argument for linking the music and the vision is also good.
But your answer has given me the chance to realize something more about my feelings for this text, which I will try to describe.
I have no problem with the fact that we are dealing with something abstract. We are in complete agreement about that. This is a symbolic narrative. A myth. This myth can be viewed as an elven story limited by their understanding (although one might wonder if elves abstract thinking doesn't surpass ours). It is a symbol for some sequence of events that goes beyond our capacity to grasp. Now basically we could either try to visualize the things that the myth symbolizes, or we could depict the myth. And you could perhaps call me a bit of an orthodox here. I believe in telling the myth. I believe that showing the symbolic sequence gives more depth to the story than trying to show what the myth symbolises. I just love this mythic aspect. Getting under it, so to speak, trying to depict what "really happened" would be a mistake I think.
In your answer I get a clearer idea of how you would like to see it. Perhaps I read your earlier comments less thoroughly than I should have, or just misunderstood. I like the Fantasia reference. With dialogue it could work. It could have that essential mythic quality. But I guess I have a feeling that going straight into the Ainulindalë will risk giving the impression that this isn't myth. That it is what really happened. This is a greater risk when you're doing television than when you're writing, since a reader is given freedom to think of the text as symbolic while viewers of a film get one dimension of a story "in the face" so to speak. If we do flashbacks it will perhaps be easier to take it as something distorted by memory. That was my original though anyway. But here's a new thought that is my "middle ground"-suggestion:

Maybe if we let the Ainulindalë begin in Estel in some way? If we hear Elrond beginning the story and do an extreme close up on Estel, and then go to Ainulindalë - the music and the vision could be like his fantasy about it all. What do you think? It could give us some more freedom to depict this myth in a symbolic way.

We should do the Ainulindalë and the vision in one go, as you suggest. And we start with that, and get to Eä after. The vision will clarify the music in some ways, and together they can lend some understanding to what will happen next. So, we should absolutely end with the Eä moment - that way, the Children of Ilúvatar will be in sharp memory (from the vision).
 
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Haakon, you have managed to put into words what I believe many people feel about the Ainulindale. It is a symbolic narrative and this is why many contributors feel that it should be treated differently to the other tales in the Silmarillion. I think your idea of leading into it differently so that we understand that this is what Estel imagines it to be like, not what actually transpired will be what we need to convince the hosts to do it this way.
 
I think that the images being discussed are fantastic, but one thing that I would like to point out as that while the Ainulindale is indeed a mythical story, it is not necessarily 'fictional' within the framework of the Silmarillion. It is important that we remember this, given that Tolkien was quite clear that myth carried as much weight with him as any 'historical' account.
 
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