Rhiannon
Well-Known Member
Morgoth makes Edhellos confess to Angrod that she is a kinslayer and releases her from the Spell of Bottomless Dread.Sorry for bursting in in the middle of your discussion. How does Gothmog ‘ungagging’ Edhellos work?
Morgoth makes Edhellos confess to Angrod that she is a kinslayer and releases her from the Spell of Bottomless Dread.Sorry for bursting in in the middle of your discussion. How does Gothmog ‘ungagging’ Edhellos work?
Well, presumably, that news is days late, for one. If Gothmog was going to set up a method to deal with the onset of the Feanoreans, he would have to have done so by this point. It seems mostly like this news is being brought to Gothmog at this very moment so that Sauron can spot Edhellos rather than because the information is useful to Gothmog. Gothmog likely would have known of this while he was digging in in preparation for Fingolfin's arrival. Also, it only increases Sauron's culpability here. Sauron delivers these assurances to Gothmog while Sauron's forces, specifically geared for tasks like screening for enemy movements, somehow are missing the arrival of the Feanoreans. In fact, Celegorm would likely have to have already passed north of them in order to make his charge later on in the same engagement.Why does the scenario in my newest script (Sauron reporting to Gothmog about the success of his part of the plan) not work?
The news isn't new. Gothmog would have been expecting Sauron to do his job and make sure that the Feanorians do not come. Would it help if I made this more clear that it is a confirmation of something Gothmog already knows?Well, presumably, that news is days late, for one. If Gothmog was going to set up a method to deal with the onset of the Feanoreans, he would have to have done so by this point. It seems mostly like this news is being brought to Gothmog at this very moment so that Sauron can spot Edhellos rather than because the information is useful to Gothmog. Gothmog likely would have known of this while he was digging in in preparation for Fingolfin's arrival. Also, it only increases Sauron's culpability here. Sauron delivers these assurances to Gothmog while Sauron's forces, specifically geared for tasks like screening for enemy movements, somehow are missing the arrival of the Feanoreans. In fact, Celegorm would likely have to have already passed north of them in order to make his charge later on in the same engagement.
So, Sauron comes to the battle, why?The news isn't new. Gothmog would have been expecting Sauron to do his job and make sure that the Feanorians do not come. Would it help if I made this more clear that it is a confirmation of something Gothmog already knows?
To confirm that the messenger was killed.So, Sauron comes to the battle, why?
But if this is something Gothmog already knows, why does Sauron need to deliver this information?To confirm that the messenger was killed.
Sauron said he was going to do this, but there wasn't a 100% chance of success. Now he's confirming that it did happen.But if this is something Gothmog already knows, why does Sauron need to deliver this information?
Sauron doesn't have to like it, but this attack on Minas Tirith without the intervention of the Feanorians requires him to work with Gothmog.Personally, I find the suggestion that Sauron would go out of his way to inform Gothmog of anything at all a bit of a stretch. And that he would go into a battlefield - not as a general with a host around him but as a messenger?
I don't mean him liking it, I suggest that he would not do it. He would send someone.Sauron doesn't have to like it, but this attack on Minas Tirith without the intervention of the Feanorians requires him to work with Gothmog.
He could, but he doesn't need to. Sauron likes to do things personally, and he probably wants to see what is happening on the battlefield for himself. Plus, he gets a chance to insult Gothmog.I don't mean him liking it, I suggest that he would not do it. He would send someone.
Then he would come as a general with a large host.He could, but he doesn't need to. Sauron likes to do things personally, and he probably wants to see what is happening on the battlefield for himself. Plus, he gets a chance to insult Gothmog.
I agree, but the hosts of the podcast didn't want Sauron to be a general. They did, however, agree that he and his forces could be prowling the edges of the battlefield and taking prisoners.Then he would come as a general with a large host.
They did, but I'm still unconvinced that them doing so wouldn't give them plenty of warning of the impending Feanorean attack.I agree, but the hosts of the podcast didn't want Sauron to be a general. They did, however, agree that he and his forces could be prowling the edges of the battlefield and taking prisoners.
This was done some time ago. Why is Gothmog only finding out about this now? This happened before Angrod and Aegnor even left Dorthonion. What prevented this confirmation from reaching Gothmog in the intervening time?Sauron said he was going to do this, but there wasn't a 100% chance of success. Now he's confirming that it did happen.
But then he can’t reach Gothmog.I agree, but the hosts of the podcast didn't want Sauron to be a general. They did, however, agree that he and his forces could be prowling the edges of the battlefield and taking prisoners.
If they aren't there, where would they be?They did, but I'm still unconvinced that them doing so wouldn't give them plenty of warning of the impending Feanorean attack.
Travelling. Neither Sauron nor Gothmog has a bunny sled.This was done some time ago. Why is Gothmog only finding out about this now? This happened before Angrod and Aegnor even left Dorthonion. What prevented this confirmation from reaching Gothmog in the intervening time?
Sauron himself can go to Gothmog, his forces just can't engage in battle.But then he can’t reach Gothmog.
I’m saying I think that is entirely implausible. He will not wade solo through a battle to deliver a message, not to Gothmog (for any reason), not to anyone (well, probably to Morgoth).Sauron himself can go to Gothmog, his forces just can't engage in battle.
Right. And Gothmog was right near Angband when it happened. And Sauron can fly. That's not going to cut it.If they aren't there, where would they be?
Travelling. Neither Sauron nor Gothmog has a bunny sled.![]()
Likely with Sauron, safe in Angband. Or raiding the relatively unprotected settlements of Beleriand, and kidnapping people who aren't soldiers ready for (or engaged in) battle.If they aren't there, where would they be?