Session 6-09: Beren and Lúthien, Part 3

Question: if Beren wanted to cut and run in Dorthonion, why does he choose the quest and what makes his will so set on taking Angband alone with just him and his knife? Did he honestly think he'd succeed?
First he went to Finrod, so he was not set on going alone originally. In Tol Sirion he saw Luthien's power so he is aware that his chances are better with her than without. But Finrod died in spite of all his powers. Maybe Beren does not wants to have another immortal dying on his account?
 
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First he went to Finrod, so he was not set on going alone originally. In Tol Sirion he saw Luthien's power so he is aware that his chances are better with her than without. But Finrod died in spite of all his powers. Maybe Beren does not wants to have another immortsl dying on his account?
He'd still be squashed like a bug and if what happened to Andreth is any indication, Lúthien would subsequently spend the rest of her days unhappy as Angrod did. Surely he would have heard of how Fingolfin fared against Morgoth, and only Morgoth.
 
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He'd still be squashed like a bug and if what happened to Andreth is any indication, Lúthien would subsequently spend the rest of her days unhappy as Finrod did. Surely he would have heard of how Fingolfin fared against Morgoth, and only Morgoth.

Luthien? She is half-Ainu. Is Melian unhappy after Thingol's death? And Finwe has found consolation after Miriel's death (however untypical, it is at least possible.) So that is not a given. Beyond that, Beren is a human and does he know that? I assume he has seen human widows before, and happily remarried widows probably also.
 
Luthien? She is half-Ainu. Is Melian unhappy after Thingol's death? And Finwe has found consolation after Miriel's death (however untypical, it is at least possible.) So that is not a given. Beyond that, Beren is a human and does he know that? I assume he has seen human widows before, and happily remarried widows probably also.
It is possible, but goes against most Elven psychology (and also makes Maeglin's plot to get Idril in The Fall of Gondolin rather bone-headed).
 
Question about the last podcast: It was suggested that Sauron temporarily subdue Lúthien by showing her dead Beren and attempting to force her to despair. I don't quite understand this line of thought: how is Sauron to know that Beren is Lúthien's love? He doesn't seem to recognize Beren as the man with a price on his head equal to Fingon since he set the wolf on him while saving Finrod for last because he showed himself to be a mighty Elf lord, nor would he have any means of knowing that Lúthien has come for Beren. As far as Sauron knows, Beren is just some wacky rogue who happens to be traveling with the Elves. How is he to know that Beren has a quest to recover a Silmaril? He doesn't know anything about them outside of them being Elves and a Man traveling, since he sets the wolf on them to make them squeal.
 
Iirc through the context and how Luthien reacts. Why would this elf princess run after this particular human, and when she reacts, he can read that. Sauron still for quite a while is in his manipulator era, so i'd expect him to read ppl very well. And as for the quest, idk that's an interesting question, what exactly he thinks they're here for. But obv. an elflord /w entourage doesn't just walk into Angband for fun.

I think in Finrod and Beren's case he was just listening a lot and when they, especially Finrod in the battle, were making a move, he used that information and energy in his favour (like in judo). Maybe from listening to them he also has some kind of intuition about what they're here for. With Luthien he tries the same in the beginning, and has some amount of success with it, like with finding out Beren is a lever for Luthien, but then Luthien starts listening to him, he goes on the offensive and the same happens to him, that he volunteers pieces of info that she can use against him. I think that was discussed on the pod too, and back when the pot of evil was first discussed, i remember thinking that Luthien must somehow find that out during the song duel, and that will be her alqualonde, kinslaying & helcaraxe that she can smash him over the head with, figuratively speaking.

While we're at this, I remember from the session how the topic of Luthien's song explosiveness or not was discussed, I do agree that it shouldn't be a giant bang, but i think it should develop a lot of energy in a different way. I would love though if she starts out of the silence very low and almost (deceptively) weak, looking for some weakness because she recognises that Sauron would do the same if she goes for brute strength. which invites him investing more force and more info into his song as he thinks he sees weakness. Maybe she hears some kind of hint to the necromancy, and somehow teases out more info on that, which she then can use to judo-style sweep him off his feet. But i do think at the end she should be singing fully and with a lot of energy, once he is totally swept up in the song magic "flood" of it all. Otherwise that would be a little anticlimatic. But the force is not the thing that turns the tide. (Okay sorry enough confused water and sports metaphors for one paragraph xD)
 
It is possible, but goes against most Elven psychology (and also makes Maeglin's plot to get Idril in The Fall of Gondolin rather bone-headed).

Still, how much Elven psychology does Beren know? (And Luthien is not even pure elven.)

But obv. an elflord /w entourage doesn't just walk into Angband for fun.

They are not in Angband and were captured outside of Tol-in-Gaurhoth trying to get past it unnoticed disguised as orcs?
 
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Still, how much Elven psychology does Beren know? (And Luthien is not even pure elven.)
It's immaterial whether or not Beren knows. As far as not being pure Elven, Melian experiences the same sort of pangs as the result of her spouse dying as Elves do; Doriath diminishes when Thingol is killed, the water runs differently, and the Girdle is weakened.
 
It's immaterial whether or not Beren knows.
Of course it is material as Beren will behave differently under diverse assumptions about the effects of his assumed death on Luthien.

As far as not being pure Elven, Melian experiences the same sort of pangs as the result of her spouse dying as Elves do; Doriath diminishes when Thingol is killed, the water runs differently, and the Girdle is weakened.

This might be simple the result of the elven king dying - the land reacts to it.

I assume Melian returns to Valinor and resumes her job there as before as a Maia? Actually a technical side question: Is she still bound by marriage when Thingol gets reembodied or not? Thingol is, but is she?
 
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