Session 6:14 - Magic

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Session 6-13 of Silm Film will take place on Thursday June 16th at 10 PM Eastern Time. We will be discussing Episode 1 of Season 6.
For discussion of the Episode 1 script, please visit this thread in the Script forum:

Script Discussion: S06E01 WE'RE BACK!!!!

Ok, so right now we have scheduled the next script discussion for 01APR22 @ 8:00 PM Eastern. No April Fool's Joke implied there. I will have a Zoom link closer to the time of broadcast, so anyone who is interested in participating on camera or even just by audio, let me know and I will get that...
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Session 6-14 will take place on Thursday July 7th at 10 PM Eastern Time. Topic for discussion was announced at the end of Session 6-13. We will be talking about the depiction of Magic in Season 6 of Silm Film. This will need to be a natural extension of magic we have shown in the past, while introducing new ways of showing magic to the audience in our show.

We discussed the depiction of Necromancy in Session 6-13, and we have touched on the portrayal of the song battle in this season and previous seasons. But there is plenty of use of magic when we have a whole season focusing on Lúthien, and many elements of this tale were present in the earliest versions of the mythology which had, shall we say, a different tone. So, considering how to portray that magic on screen is going to be important to making this season feel like it is part of our show, and not a wholly separate project.

How do we want to depict and represent magic in Tolkien's world? In general, but specifically focusing on the content of Season 6.
 
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Some examples of previous depictions of magic from our show are given here as a starting point for the discussion.

The creation of the Silmarils in Season 2:
Session 2-13 podcast, cued up to the place where we discuss how to show (or not show) the making of the silmarils on screen.
https://tolkienprof.fireside.fm/323?t=5239


Here is an example of Sauron using song against elves in a battle situation from Season 3:
Episode 3x12: Despair and Hope
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(The highlighted part calls out the suggestion that Maedhros attempt to sing back at first.)


Here is the reforging of Ringil from Season 4 Episode 1:

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And here is our discussion of 'magic swords' on the podcast (Session 4-17):


Also from Season 4, at the Mereth Aderthad, Sauron uses a magical instrument to sow discord (the hurdy gurdy). Lúthien recognizes what is amiss, and turns his song into a light and silly song, diffusing the tension - naturally she uses the poem Goblin Feet! So, while they don't have any direct interaction with one another, this is the precursor to their confrontation this season.



Season 5 featured Eöl's magic in Nan Elmoth, particularly in Episode 5x02: The Wide World and Episode 5x07: The Council of Estolad


One piece of magic that will appear in Season 6 that has appeared in previous seasons is Melian's grotto in Menegroth.
 
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As I have mentioned before spinning and weaving are magical activities in ancient European mythologies and the few moments that they are mentioned in Tolkien's works they are most often also associated accordingly with - specifically female - magic and power.

So I would like this element to be included in the coming discussion of magic as Lúthien's magical spinning and weaving is the most prominent example of Tolkien showing it being done, not just mentioning it in passing, as at other places.

(The part that spinning and weaving does take in the overall discussion does not need to be much, but it would be nice if it were mentioned, as the magical swords were).


"Their counterparts on earth were the seiðkonur, prophetic women with special magic capabilities to reveal the future in ceremonies and rituals, described in many places in saga literature (Raudvere 2008, 238). Thus the motiv of women spinning and weaving the „texture" of one's life is a metaphor of concrete physical activity, which under certain circumstances becomes a highly symbolic act charged with magic and supernatural power."

"The ideal of a Viking man was to fight with a sword, whereas distaff and spindle belonged to the realm of women (Gardela 2008, 48,50). " [rare exceptions being male (semi-)divine beings like Odin (or before him Hercules)].

"Spinning and weaving and their use for magical purposes have proven a fruitful field where recent research in archaeology, literature, linguistics and ethnography allow us to get a better understanding of the concept of seiðr which constituted an integral part of the Vikings' world view."

www.academia.edu

Harðsnúin fræði. Spinning and weaving in Viking times and its use in seiðr

Harðsnúin fræði. Spinning and weaving in Viking times and its use in seiðr
www.academia.edu

This above is the example for the Vikings, still the ideas are already seen in ancient Greece and Rome and archeologically long before. And while Tolkien does use those elements in his stories sparringly - they are still being used by him in accord with those traditions.


[Those mythological concepts are ancient and shared among many surrounding cultures, as we can see the idea of the human body being "woven" already in the Psalms and use the idea to this very day when we use the word "tissue" to refer to muscles & co. in biology: "The English word "tissue" derives from the French word "tissu", the past participle of the verb tisser, "to weave". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tissue_(biology)."]

I think including magic when focussing on the "sword-side" and leaving it out when connected to the "distaff-side" ends up in a situation where a female character has to be shown with a sword to show her having any agency at all - which is not what Tolkien wrote - and for sure not for Lúthien.

Here you have a great explanation - where one learns aong others that the name "Gandalf" 9:07-9:21 is ultimately derived from the "magic-wand" which war originally a "distaff".


[I would take the speaker's side-remarks about Christianity with a grain of salt, as spinning has also sacred symbolic connotations withing the Christian tradition - mosty associated with the Incarnation - as as such Mary is often depicted spinning herself - but that tradition he seems to be completely unfamiliar with. Any textile arts were higly regarded and executed in female convents and continue so to this day. Also the oldest distaffs were much shorter and not hold between the legs - this is a later development. But the rest of his talk shows the traditional connection between spinning and weaving and female magic quite well.]
 
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A pretty simple but functional way of representing magic happening is with light.
Here is an example from the Sauron vs Finrod battle by Clamavi de Profundis. If you watch the video carefully, you will notice that the still image changes across the duel to represent the power being exerted and the things Finrod is singing about.

Light is also used to represent magic in The Legend of Zelda - Breath of the Wild. Throughout the game dark red smoke, paticles and 'goo' known as 'malice' are used to represent Ganon's evil power, and golden light represents Zelda's goddess magic which is shown in this cutscene (0:40 - 1:00) (this is a late game cutscene so potential spoilers).

Similar effects could be used to represent the exertion of power when a character is using magic. Different colours would make it very easy for the audience to see whether is is 'good' magic or 'evil' magic and can help them keep track of whose power it is.
 
My suggestion would be the use of leitmotif whenever one's magic is used, ie in Sleeping Beauty when Maleficent makes her presence known when she hypnotizes Aurora to follow the will o the wisp to the tower where the spinning wheel is. Compare with the oboe and trumpet heard when she appears on-screen for the first time.



Speaking of which, what do we have for Lúthien, Melian, Sauron, and Finrod for themes?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
My suggestion would be the use of leitmotif whenever one's magic is used, ie in Sleeping Beauty when Maleficent makes her presence known when she hypnotizes Aurora to follow the will o the wisp to the tower where the spinning wheel is. Compare with the oboe and trumpet heard when she appears on-screen for the first time.



Speaking of which, what do we have for Lúthien, Melian, Sauron, and Finrod for themes?
Click to expand...

Magic in Season 6

And also while i am interested very much in these points, we will have to talk about the magic and the "special effects" at some point. Maybe this could also be part of a "concept art/art department" episode? Like, in a real series, you might have your art department find visuals, in...
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Ange1e4e5 said:
My suggestion would be the use of leitmotif whenever one's magic is used, ie in Sleeping Beauty when Maleficent makes her presence known when she hypnotizes Aurora to follow the will o the wisp to the tower where the spinning wheel is.
Click to expand...

Just for clarification - this device as shown in this clip is completely disfunctional (missing the very flyer and bobbin part that does the spinning, the wheel is turning but it does not move anything, the pedal is fixed...) and not able to spin anything and there is no way anybody ever would hurt his finger by just touching the tip of a distaff.

This should have been a spindle wheel (great wheel) with a sharp metal spindle tip (those can get sharp with use). Hope our dealings with any techology, magical or not, will not end as ridiculous as that!
 
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Odola said:
Just for clarification - this device as shown in this clip is completely disfunctional (missing the very flyer and bobbin part that does the spinning, the wheel is turning but it does not move anything, the pedal is fixed...) and not able to spin anything and there is no way anybody ever would hurt his finger by just touching the tip of a distaff.

This should have been a spindle wheel (great wheel) with a sharp metal spindle tip (those can get sharp with use). Hope our dealings with any techology, magical or not, will not end as ridiculous as that!
Click to expand...

I think the clip is a reference to the musical cue, as explained in the post. That it includes any part of a spinning wheel is likely coincedental.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I think the clip is a reference to the musical cue, as explained in the post. That it includes any part of a spinning wheel is likely coincedental.
Click to expand...

Might be, still it is an example how not to do things on screen, whether magical or not. A at least basic understanding of the mechanics of the process shown is always required.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
The use of the theme is what I had in mind.
Click to expand...

So to specify, do you suggest that when a person does magic, his/her own musical theme is played to show his/her being/essence being "projected" out of him/her in a way?
 
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Spinning human hair is not unheard of - it is just a bit coarse - more for strings than threads - because humans do not have an undercoat/down fibers (e.g. modern sheep have only down hair left, they have completely lost their "hairy hair" portion of their coat through breeding) - which is usually used for spinning:

(caution - some ethnological/anthropological natural nudity included in the video footage)
[In awe: Those are some very advanced spinners... Such a demanding fiber... Very impressed. - This actually does look like magic to me - given my basic spinning experience - I wouId expect the thread to fall apart after a few seconds and it does not. - Will never reach that level myself... Sigh - Still I can get some nice alpaka wool (very spinner-friendly) and 3D-design and print myself an optimized spindle that compensates for my lack of skill and experience and come by, too (always look on the bright side of things) 😉. ]


Human hair is also usually quite irritant - if one finds wool coarse than human hair is far worse - it also easy to get an allergic reaction to it as our immune system reacts to the humam proteins included - so it is not used for cloth but as cord/string to bind something together, if used at all - and that is mostly done only by cultures which have few other things available for spinning...

We just have to assume Luthien's hair fine and sleek as silk (so she grows it long, sleek fibres need to be long to be spinnable, coarse ones can be much shorter, as they attach to each other) and non-allergenic...

Silk is usually reeled, not spun. One usually spinns only the silk noils - one would need to have fast spinning spindle (usually used for a short staple fibers like cotton - where you have to get as much twist as you can into the spun thread fast - still here the high twist is also an advantage when dealing with a sleek fiber - so fast spinning little metal supported tahkli would be a good choice:

 
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Odola said:
So silk can be what is actually spun on screen? Dyed to look the part?
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Dyeing the hair might be a problem, mainly through acquiring the necessary materials (how she'd get the necessary dyes without arousing suspicion). Unless Lúthien makes it like a standard black or brown cloak.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Dyeing the hair might be a problem, mainly through acquiring the necessary materials (how she'd get the necessary dyes without arousing suspicion). Unless Lúthien makes it like a standard black or brown cloak.
Click to expand...

No, no. It should just pretend to be Luthien's hair - as we do not have half Ainu/Elda hair availiable as a prop. (Or do you happen to know of a source? 😉 )
So silk dyed to look like Luthien's hair in colour. It has been agreed it will be cut before spinning, so that should not be a problem. We never see it actuallly on Luthien's head, but already neatly put in baskets or on the distaff itself. Should be fine. Just that Luthien's cut hair on her head should be of a similar shade.

Something like this:

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Graphite - Dyed Mulberry Silk (Bombyx Silk) - Top Roving AAA+ Spinning Felting
 
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I am not sure why glowing light would be a component of a shadowy cloak that helps you hide. But yes, the cloak design can be a thread in Costumes.

Lúthien's Magic Hair Cloak

In Season 6 Episode 5, Lúthien will weave a cloak from her hair while imprisoned in Hirilorn. What should this magic cloak look like? It is magic, so I suggest that it be much less stiff than you would expect fabric made from hair to be. It could be made from very fine, almost transparent...
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