Session 7-01: A Look Ahead

Also, it can be helpful to articulate *why* you prefer one version to another - as that reason might be relevant to the storytelling and helpful in making a choice.
 
MithLuin said:
Also, it can be helpful to articulate *why* you prefer one version to another
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Yes, definitely @MithLuin, this is one of the big takeaways of talking about adaptation, helping to crystallize what is important about different aspects of the story.

Regarding the Elessar, I like the one-stone version because it eventually connects Aragorn directly to Earendil, adding grandeur and ancientry to Aragorn’s regalia. It is similar with the Elendilmir. Him (eventually) having the original head-jewel connects him directly to Elendil, whose inheritance he claims in Gondor and Arnor. So I like and want to preserve the direct connection to great figures of the past.

Of course the Elendilmir is another situation where the original artifact was lost (for a time) and a new (lesser) one was created to replace it. What I like about this two-artifact version is that it shows both the sadness of loss and attempts to restore a portion of the older greatness, two important themes of the overall story.

Beyond this, there is the question of how the Elessar comes down to the third age. If the original Elessar is brought from Aman by the Istari, the gifting to Galadriel is a bit awkward as she had no direct connection to Gondolin. We could answer this with a foresight that she and her descendants “should” have it for reasons revealed later, but it probably ought to have gone to Elrond, Earendil’s son. The two-stone version would help us sidestep this awkwardness and give us a chance to show amends between the Feanorians and the Finarfinians if Celebrimbor makes it for Galadriel in atonement for his family’s misdeeds and to aid her work of restoration and renewal in the second age.
 
Arnorion said:
Yes, definitely @MithLuin, this is one of the big takeaways of talking about adaptation, helping to crystallize what is important about different aspects of the story.

Regarding the Elessar, I like the one-stone version because it eventually connects Aragorn directly to Earendil, adding grandeur and ancientry to Aragorn’s regalia. It is similar with the Elendilmir. Him (eventually) having the original head-jewel connects him directly to Elendil, whose inheritance he claims in Gondor and Arnor. So I like and want to preserve the direct connection to great figures of the past.

Of course the Elendilmir is another situation where the original artifact was lost (for a time) and a new (lesser) one was created to replace it. What I like about this two-artifact version is that it shows both the sadness of loss and attempts to restore a portion of the older greatness, two important themes of the overall story.

Beyond this, there is the question of how the Elessar comes down to the third age. If the original Elessar is brought from Aman by the Istari, the gifting to Galadriel is a bit awkward as she had no direct connection to Gondolin. We could answer this with a foresight that she and her descendants “should” have it for reasons revealed later, but it probably ought to have gone to Elrond, Earendil’s son. The two-stone version would help us sidestep this awkwardness and give us a chance to show amends between the Feanorians and the Finarfinians if Celebrimbor makes it for Galadriel in atonement for his family’s misdeeds and to aid her work of restoration and renewal in the second age.
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So what would be the point of having the first one if it's lost and serves no other purpose?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
So what would be the point of having the first one if it's lost and serves no other purpose?
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It could be a gift from Turgon to Idril, perhaps in memory of Aredhel. The king of Gondolin changes his heart and supports his daughter’s desire to engage with the peoples of Middle-earth in her own unique way, marrying one of the Edain. It is his wedding present to them and its power to restore what was withered by evil is meant to aid her own work in undoing the works of Melkor more actively than his run and hide approach.
 
Arnorion said:
It could be a gift from Turgon to Idril, perhaps in memory of Aredhel. The king of Gondolin changes his heart and supports his daughter’s desire to engage with the peoples of Middle-earth in her own unique way, marrying one of the Edain. It is his wedding present to them and its power to restore what was withered by evil is meant to aid her own work in undoing the works of Melkor more actively than his run and hide approach.
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I thought that Turgon would be supportive of Idril and Tuor from the get-go, to contrast Thingol and realizing the new star that would arise from Huor's last words.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I thought that Turgon would be supportive of Idril and Tuor from the get-go, to contrast Thingol and realizing the new star that would arise from Huor's last words.
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I imagined that Turgon falls from his vision-inspired path a bit by becoming to enamored of Gondolin. He was resistant to his sister’s mission and came to regret it. He is anticipating a messenger from Ulmo but doesn’t expect it to be Edain. I bet it is Idril’s idea to bind herself to him which would surprise her father at first. Having him be resistant could add tension for that episode and add a layer of meaning to his wedding gift to his daughter. But having the Elessar be a wedding gift still works even if Turgon is supportive from the jump.
I also like the Elessar being not only a generational heirloom but specifically associated with marriage: first Idril and Tuor, then Celebrian and Elrond. This adds expectation when Galadriel passes it to Aragorn, her soon-to-be grandson-in-law.
 
Arnorion said:
Having him be resistant could add tension for that episode and add a layer of meaning to his wedding gift to his daughter. B
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The problem is that the trope "elven father refuses his daughter's marriage to a human" has been done to death.. And we just had it before...

What could be done is the reverse - Turgon treats Tuor over-the-top well - even to the extent of giving his daughter to him - just not have to give up his beloved city - he tries to calm his conscience and to appease the uncomfortable messenger whose message he chooses to ignore by honouring the messenger over his message.

In a way: if he is going to disregard Ulmo's message, Turgon will not add insult to injury by disregarding his messenger too. It is an appeasement policy.
 
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Arnorion said:
I imagined that Turgon falls from his vision-inspired path a bit by becoming to enamored of Gondolin. He was resistant to his sister’s mission and came to regret it. He is anticipating a messenger from Ulmo but doesn’t expect it to be Edain. I bet it is Idril’s idea to bind herself to him which would surprise her father at first. Having him be resistant could add tension for that episode and add a layer of meaning to his wedding gift to his daughter. But having the Elessar be a wedding gift still works even if Turgon is supportive from the jump.
I also like the Elessar being not only a generational heirloom but specifically associated with marriage: first Idril and Tuor, then Celebrian and Elrond. This adds expectation when Galadriel passes it to Aragorn, her soon-to-be grandson-in-law.
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But with Galadriel passing the Elessar to Aragorn it would merely be the "lesser" of the two, would it not?
 
Odola said:
The problem is that the trope "elven father resist his daughter's marriage to a human" has been done to death.. And we just had it before... In a way: if he is going to disregard Ulmo's message Turgon will not add insult to injury by disregarding his messenger too. It is an appeasement policy.
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I see the risk of repeating the over-protective Elf-dad routine, and I could certainly get behind the alternative you suggest. Are you thinking then that Turgon gives the Elessar directly to Tuor who then gains Idril’s favor? This would be very symmetrical to Galadriel gives the Elessar to Aragorn who eventually marries Arwen.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
But with Galadriel passing the Elessar to Aragorn it would merely be the "lesser" of the two, would it not?
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Yes, in this context we’d be going with Galadriel gifting the replacement Elessar to Aragorn. I love the idea off him getting the real deal but I talked myself into preferring the two-stone version instead.
 
@Nicholas Palazzo - a revenge-driven Galadriel is problematic as she has to have a child for the future of the story - and elves do not get children in war, if she were in revenge mode she would stay childless - and later she would not let Frodo go against Sauron because she would go herself... And she would started her revenge right then when her first two brothers got killed, and not wait until Finrod's death... So for this to work we should have Galadriel having had Celebrian already, before any of her brothers were killed.

And if Galadriel were a vengeful person she would personally kill off any orc in the Misty Mountains after what they have done to Celebrian in the 3rd age. So careful. Making Galadriel vengeful makes her a completely different character than we have in the 3rd age with consequences for the future story.
 
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The character arc ends up in the Third Age (and probably even in late Second Age) closer to book Galadriel. There's scope for a thousand years of white-hot Noldor anger in the early Second Age for her to cool down about, and then learn and regret it.
 
David_M_R said:
The character arc ends up in the Third Age (and probably even in late Second Age) closer to book Galadriel. There's scope for a thousand years of white-hot Noldor anger in the early Second Age for her to cool down about, and then learn and regret it.
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Still if she freaks out about the death of her brother who was a warrior on a self-chosen suicide mission then how she would not freak out about her own daughter, a civilian, who was just traveling to visit her mother? Not consistent for a character if she freaks out about the one and not the about the other...
 
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one scene for Tuor in Gondolin could be e.g. him going up to visit Fingolfin's Cairn... nice visuals
 
Odola said:
What could be done is the reverse - Turgon treats Tuor over-the-top well - even to the extent of giving his daughter to him - just not have to give up his beloved city - he tries to calm his conscience and to appease the uncomfortable messenger whose message he chooses to ignore by honouring the messenger over his message.

In a way: if he is going to disregard Ulmo's message, Turgon will not add insult to injury by disregarding his messenger too. It is an appeasement policy.
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Here we could add here Maeglin's attitude too. Maeglin has not been raised with Turgon's reverence towards the Valar as his father Eol was one of the refusers. So Maeglin might be advising Turgon to both to disregard the message and to have Tuor killed off as an unwanted intruder. Turgon's exaggerated goodwill towards Tuor might occur to Maeglin's as an effect of a weak mind, strange Western superstitions and hypocrisy strengthened by his impression of having himself been slighted both by his king and his cousin for a mere mortal bringing in some just fantastical outlandish tales and claims.
 
MithLuin said:
Here is the revised plan of what we came up with in Thursday's session:

View attachment 5192
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Just to note that Corey was strongly of the opinion that it should be Fëanorians vs Dwarves, not Beren vs Dwarves, post Death-of-Thingol, as in the Later Quenta, to set up the Second Kinslaying better. Though I note it has a query next to it in the plan, so perhaps this is what you meant to indicate.

[Minor digression:

If that is the option that is taken, then I guess we need to have Melian bring the Nauglamir to Beren and Lúthien before shuffling off this mortal coil Middle-earth, back to Valinor. It strikes me that this might make it less immediately obvious to the world where the Silmaril got to. But it also makes for interesting decisions about why the Dwarves never took the Nauglamir. One might appeal to the "Dwarf-honesty" (that hyphenation! cf the theory of Sparrow Alden that this means it was a single word in the pre-translated text) mentioned in Concerning..."The Hoard" that meant they didn't actually take all the treasure they could, though it did include the Nauglamir in that version. But this is getting a bit deep in the weeds!]
 
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