Sessions 133 & 134

[AspiringAlly]

Before I ask this, I want to say that I’ve loved these podcasts for years now. I’ve listened to Mythgard Academy up to the start of Morgoth’s Ring, and to Exploring the Lord of the Rings up to episode 135.

I’m not about to complain, but to ask for help.
I don’t like poetry.
I find it fussy and intricate without much purpose or fun. (not always, but nearly always)
Prof. Ilsen, however, has managed to get me to actually enjoy reading Tolkien’s poetry rather than just skip it.
That said...

I just listened to five hours, twice through, trying my hardest to understand, these two episodes about the poem in Boromir’s dream.

we never talk about the actual content of the dream. The meaning of the words is ignored.
Instead, it’s 3/4ths discussion of things like... one line having an extra syllable, or how “taken” sounds a lot like “token”. At best one discovers an impression that certain lines maybe kind of stab out a little bit The rest is just saying how much we’ve discovered without actually saying *what* we discovered.

I’m not trying to be snide. I really feel like I’m missing out. Twice I’ve listened thru these two episodes, now. The professor gets so excited about these wonderful revelations, and yet I don’t see what he means (not even to recognize yet disagree on the importance)

What on Earth was so interesting about that poem aside from all the “traditionally” interesting bits (ie the revelations and story within it)?

I want to understand.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi AspiringAlly,

I thought you might like a post I wrote immediately after class 133, poking gentle fun at Prof. Olsen's enthusiastic delve into every aspect of the dream poem. Here it is:


After the Council of Elrond, Boromir, though frustrated at the mysterious delay in leaving Rivendell, determines to make the most of this time by gaining all the information he can from the people around.

One of his chief targets is Bilbo. Possibly fairly objective and less ‘political’. A Mortal in the world of Elves. Should be able to offer a good perspective on Aragorn, Elrond, Gandalf, and Frodo.

Astutely, Boromir has prepared himself for this conversation by pumping (rather easily) Merry and Pippin for all they know.

“Master Baggins,” says Boromir, having tracked Bilbo down, “you are a scholar and a poet of renown, I wonder if you could please help me better understand the poem from my Dream?”

Delighted, Bilbo launches into an energetic discussion of the poem. The meter is examined in detail. After much ‘A,B,A’ and ‘C,D,C’ing, considerable counting of syllables, they agree that the seemingly regular and predictable meter is, in fact, of stunning complexity and originality.

The rhyme scheme is dissected with care. Again, what at first glance looked a totally conventional rhyme pattern, is found to be subtly and intriguingly irregular.

Alliteration is carefully analyzed, but eventually determined to be relevant, but of relatively lesser importance in this poem.

Syntax is studied seriously and enjambment between lines 3 and 4, and lines 5 and 6 agreed to be significant.

A lengthy discussion revolves around whether the ‘hinge’ of the poem should be determined as ‘Stronger than Morgul-spells’ or ‘That Doom is near at hand’.

Having come to the conclusion that the ‘Doom’ line is the hinge, Boromir and Bilbo discuss in detail the possible meanings of the word ‘Doom’.

Having now spent 5 hours in interesting analysis with Bilbo, Boromir decides to attempt a segue into some of the information he is seeking.

“Excellent, Bilbo,” said Boromir. “But what do you make of the words ‘near at hand’? I read that as ‘soon’, and wonder why we delay in setting off from Rivendell?”

“Well, Boromir,” replied Bilbo, “perhaps Elrond feels that Christmas would be an auspicious day for the expedition to depart.”

“Christmas?”

“I asked him about that once, and he said it was a ‘futureversary’. I think that means he has foreknowledge that that date will be extremely significant sometime in the future. But, Boromir, ‘soon’ is not the only possible reading of ‘near at hand’.”

Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
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However, despite my having fun with the Professor's enthusiasm, to answer your question about "What was so interesting about the poem (besides the content), there is a lot that is interesting.

This poem is a divine communication. Either from God or from the Angels. It is the only direct 'divine' communication we get (unless we count things from Tom Bombadil - which is questionable) in TLOTR. Now, at this point, as first-time readers, we know very little about the divine in TLOTR, but we have had some hints and clues.

So, when we encounter a direct communication from the divine, there are a lot of important elements to consider. How do the divine communicate? If we look at their communication carefully, can we tell that it is genuinely divine? Does divine poetry differ from Elvish poetry? How?

I suggest that by looking carefully at the structure of the Dream poem, we learn a lot of interesting things. The poem at first glance seems pretty simple and straightforward. It seems very similar to various Elvish poems. However, the more we examine it, the more intricate and complex it becomes. Once we understand this we might surmise that the Dream Poem is indeed direct from the divine. That Elvish poetry is a more simple and unsophisticated derivative of divine poetry.

Boromir (and Faramir), like Joan of Arc, have received direct communication, indeed, command, from the divine. No one else at the Council of Elrond has had anything like this. The Council should have paid even more attention to this poem than they did. Boromir's eventual fall is more tragic, in that he too should have remembered his divine counsel, and had more faith in it.


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