Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Hi JJ48,
You ask, "How did Tolkien understand these issues"?
My hypothesis about Tolkien's thoughts is that he conceived the Elves as unfallen conscious beings and the Men as fallen conscious beings.
I think there is plenty of evidence that Men are fallen in Tolkien's world (Arwen's comments to Aragorn on his deathbed being the most direct). There is also plenty of evidence that Elves are not fallen. (Including a letter, cited by someone (maybe even you) above in this stream, where Tolkien states that some of the Elves fell in the departure from Valinor by the Noldor, implying that previously Elves were unfallen, and subsequently, most Elves remained unfallen.
I then go on to speculate on why Tolkien believes that immortal Elves, though conscious, can remain unfallen (whereas I had assumed from my reading of Adam and Eve that gaining consciousness caused the fall) and hypothesized that to Tolkien, consciousness plus knowledge of inevitable death caused a fall, whereas consciousness plus immortality did not.
That's about as far as I get on 'how did Tolkien understand these issues'? Oh, I go on a little more to speculate on how Tolkien described the 'fall' of those Elves who he states did 'fall', and on the fall and redemption of Galadriel.
But, everything after that has been little to do with 'how did Tolkien understand these issues'? And more to do with 'how does Flammifer understand these issues"?
I am pretty sure that Tolkien understood these issues more profoundly than I do.
However, I do not have much more evidence or material from Tolkien's works to figure out how he understood these things in more detail.
So, I think my hypotheses about Tolkien thinking that Men are fallen and Elves are (mostly) not, are well supported and insightful, and probably 'true'. I am afraid that when you and Anthony keep pressing me for more and more details about how that might work, you are getting my own speculations, and we are straying far from Tolkien.
Trying to articulate my own speculations is valuable for me. But I'm not sure how valuable it is for you, or the general discussion. It might be better to go back to Tolkien and see if you can decipher more of what he might have thought? You both seem more knowledgeable about the unpublished 'lore' than I am. I mostly stick to TLOTR and the Silmarillion. Can you find stuff there that bears on these questions?
You ask, "How did Tolkien understand these issues"?
My hypothesis about Tolkien's thoughts is that he conceived the Elves as unfallen conscious beings and the Men as fallen conscious beings.
I think there is plenty of evidence that Men are fallen in Tolkien's world (Arwen's comments to Aragorn on his deathbed being the most direct). There is also plenty of evidence that Elves are not fallen. (Including a letter, cited by someone (maybe even you) above in this stream, where Tolkien states that some of the Elves fell in the departure from Valinor by the Noldor, implying that previously Elves were unfallen, and subsequently, most Elves remained unfallen.
I then go on to speculate on why Tolkien believes that immortal Elves, though conscious, can remain unfallen (whereas I had assumed from my reading of Adam and Eve that gaining consciousness caused the fall) and hypothesized that to Tolkien, consciousness plus knowledge of inevitable death caused a fall, whereas consciousness plus immortality did not.
That's about as far as I get on 'how did Tolkien understand these issues'? Oh, I go on a little more to speculate on how Tolkien described the 'fall' of those Elves who he states did 'fall', and on the fall and redemption of Galadriel.
But, everything after that has been little to do with 'how did Tolkien understand these issues'? And more to do with 'how does Flammifer understand these issues"?
I am pretty sure that Tolkien understood these issues more profoundly than I do.
However, I do not have much more evidence or material from Tolkien's works to figure out how he understood these things in more detail.
So, I think my hypotheses about Tolkien thinking that Men are fallen and Elves are (mostly) not, are well supported and insightful, and probably 'true'. I am afraid that when you and Anthony keep pressing me for more and more details about how that might work, you are getting my own speculations, and we are straying far from Tolkien.
Trying to articulate my own speculations is valuable for me. But I'm not sure how valuable it is for you, or the general discussion. It might be better to go back to Tolkien and see if you can decipher more of what he might have thought? You both seem more knowledgeable about the unpublished 'lore' than I am. I mostly stick to TLOTR and the Silmarillion. Can you find stuff there that bears on these questions?