The List of Heroes

Velcanondil

New Member
Still catching up here; episode 190 now. I am fascinated by the discussion of the list of heroes Elrond names when numbering Frodo among them, which Prof. Olsen points out specifically with reference to Turin. One thing that struck me about Turin was that perhaps Elrond is hinting at a darker significance here when bringing up Turin. What of the possibility that Elrond brings up Turin because Turin tended to be his own worst enemy? He was self-destructive in so many different ways: the death of Beleg, self-imposed exile thereafter, taking multiple new names that led to the tragedy with his sister, and his ultimate suicide. I don't know how valid it may be, but bringing up Turin is an interesting bit of foreshadowing about the eventual end of the quest, when Frodo gives in to the ring's temptation after passing so many of the other challenges along the way.
 
bringing up Turin is an interesting bit of foreshadowing about the eventual end of the quest, when Frodo gives in to the ring's temptation after passing so many of the other challenges along the way.
But it's a foreshadowing that virtually nobody in the whole world could have appreciated at the time the book was published! Is Turin even mentioned at all in the appendices?
 
The main difference is that Turin makes bad choices all through, while Frodo's choices are generally on the right side - the darkness comes because he has lost almost all of himself. When he claims the Ring, he is not choosing although he says he is - the Ring is using his voice by then. And the quest is fulfilled because his earlier choices of pity and mercy have kept Gollum aliive. At that final moment, the Ring is using him, but Providence is using Gollum - a final great irony.

The darkness in Frodo's future at this early time is the darkness that falls on him from the loss of the Ring on the anniversaries of his two wounds.
 
But clearly, Tolkien does not blame Turin for his bad choices. There is an evil power working against him, "the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä". In the end, he is even supposed to get his revenge, though you have to wonder how if Men leave the world when they die. Apparently Eru will send him back?

Frodo on the other hand is only struggling with the One Ring made by his lackey. :)
 
But clearly, Tolkien does not blame Turin for his bad choices. There is an evil power working against him, "the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä". In the end, he is even supposed to get his revenge, though you have to wonder how if Men leave the world when they die. Apparently Eru will send him back?

Frodo on the other hand is only struggling with the One Ring made by his lackey. :)
But what does the revenge bring Turin? He can kill Morgoth, but this does nothing for all his dead friends, his sister-wife or their unborn child?
 
Well, revenge is rarely useful for anyone. It's just more violence. But this is a mythological story. You are thinking of these characters as 'real people'. They are not. They are symbolic operators in Tolkien's personal mythology. Turin struggles against difficult circumstances (including genuine 'evil') and loses. Thus, killing Morgoth at the "end of the world" is a simplistic (early draft!) solution to the problem of evil.
 
But what does the revenge bring Turin? He can kill Morgoth, but this does nothing for all his dead friends, his sister-wife or their unborn child?

But isn't the idea that all of those people will be populating the 'New Arda"? Doesn't the ultimate ending for Morgoth guarantee their safety moving forward?
 
But isn't the idea that all of those people will be populating the 'New Arda"? Doesn't the ultimate ending for Morgoth guarantee their safety moving forward?
That's my understanding; not that his sister would become his wife in "Arda Unmarred" as the circumstances that led to that were a result of Melkor's actions.
Also, is it revenge or Justice if this is Eru's will rather than just Turin acting alone?
 
But isn't the idea that all of those people will be populating the 'New Arda"? Doesn't the ultimate ending for Morgoth guarantee their safety moving forward?

How so? There are plenty of other evil spirits. And at any given point even one of the Ainur can fall. Arda Unmarred can only begin after the old one is completely "canceled" and must involve an "unmarring" of all its people. Killing Morgoth does not resolve anything in itself - as much as banning him did not resolve anything either really.
 
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How so? There are plenty of other evil spirits. And at any given point even one of the Ainur can fall. Arda Unmarred can only begin after the old one is completely "canceled" and must involvoes an "unmaring" of all its people. Killing Morgoth does not resolve anything in itself - as muc as banning him did not resolve anything either really.

This happens right before the remaking of the world, no? All of that stuff is going to happen. But Morgoth isn't going to be around to do anything to it. Thanks Turin.
 
Really, Gollum fulfills his oath to not let "Him" have it. Since Frodo could not destroy it by his own will, it would have fallen into Sauron's possession again. All he had to do was go get there in person. Somewhere in the Letters, Tolkien states that no one could hope to resist Sauron in person even if they had the Ring. Eventually he would have been able to get to Sammath Naur himself, and then its all over. But as Frodo warned, the Ring 'twisted his words' in an unexpected way. Gollum indeed did prevent "Him" from getting it back -- dying in the process.

This raises some interesting questions about the 'sentience' of the Ring that had been discusses and dismissed in the past. Frodo seems to think the Ring has some sort of sentience if he says it is "more treacherous' than Gollum and will twist the words of his oath.
 
This raises some interesting questions about the 'sentience' of the Ring that had been discusses and dismissed in the past. Frodo seems to think the Ring has some sort of sentience if he says it is "more treacherous' than Gollum and will twist the words of his oath.

I don't think that implies sentience in the Ring. First of all, that warning Frodo gives when Gollum first gives his oath is not the only prediction. Gandalf says that Gollum may have a part to play that neither he nor Sauron intends. Then, when Gollum assaults Frodo on Mount Doom, Frodo tells him that if he touches him again, he will be cast into the Cracks of Doom. Frodo therefore has cursed Gollum and that curse is fulfilled.

And treachery doesn't require sentience. Sauron might have imbued it with treachery towards any other bearer, should it ever be taken from him. It was treacherous toward Isildur, certainly. The Ring had something of Sauron's power, and probably a good deal of his malice, so that its treachery could be built into it.
 
When an object is described as treacherous it rarely, if ever, implies sentience; more often it indicates that the object might normally be trusted, but in certain circumstances may be harmful.
A ‘treacherous path’ might be poorly maintained, yet able to be trusted in good weather, with bad weather making it dangerous to use. There’s no sentience involved.
Granted, in Middle-Earth things aren’t quite so simple, as Caradhras would normally fall into this category, yet it is credited with sentience of a type.
 
But when an object is described as speaking words, doesn't that up the case for consciousness/sentience?

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.

“Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.”
-- from The Return of the King, "Mount Doom"
 
Forodan, that is Sam's vision, not what is objectively happening. The Ring is not talking, but Sam is seeing how it is overpowering Frodo as they get so close to the Cracks of Doom, and also the relationship between Gollum and the Ringbearer - Gollum is also completely dominated by the Ring. On the brink of the Fire, I think the Ring has achieved complete dominance over both Gollum and Frodo; neither has any will left. But the Ring is an instrument of Sauron's will, not a sentient being with a will of its own.
 
Forodan, that is Sam's vision, not what is objectively happening. The Ring is not talking
I feel the same about Turin's sword, when it tells him it will gladly run him through. Of course, in that story, the whole thing is much more problematic: Turin was dead, so he couldn't report what he'd heard to the storyteller, and in fact there were no witnesses at all, so how did the end of this story even get recorded at all? Doesn't matter, really: I'm just glad we get to read it anyway!
 
I feel the same about Turin's sword, when it tells him it will gladly run him through. Of course, in that story, the whole thing is much more problematic: Turin was dead, so he couldn't report what he'd heard to the storyteller, and in fact there were no witnesses at all, so how did the end of this story even get recorded at all? Doesn't matter, really: I'm just glad we get to read it anyway!
The "talking purse" phanomenon. Who do I suspect of having such a habit of using talking objects as a literary device? For sure not Findegil. ;-)
 
I feel the same about Turin's sword, when it tells him it will gladly run him through. Of course, in that story, the whole thing is much more problematic: Turin was dead, so he couldn't report what he'd heard to the storyteller, and in fact there were no witnesses at all, so how did the end of this story even get recorded at all? Doesn't matter, really: I'm just glad we get to read it anyway!

The difference, of course, is that the text doesn't say the Ring is talking; it says that Sam suddenly had a vision of Frodo and Gollum that interpreted what was happening in a different way that shows the power the Ring has over both of them.

As for Turin, the sword voices Turin's conscience as he commits suicide. We mustn't expect a fantasy world to conform to our ideas of reality. I agree - I am also glad we have it. I like magic to be magical.
 
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