Unmasked?

[Flammifer]

I very much like Professor Olsen’s supposition that the Nazgul ‘unmasked’ might have lost all bodily aspects, becoming pure spirit, with virtually no perception of the world, and no option but to return to Sauron, who could ‘mask’ them again. It works well from the perspective of the Legendarium.

However, could this supposition have occurred to even the most close-reading and deductive first-time reader? Could it have occurred to a reader who had read TLOTR many times, but not the Legendarium? Can we derive it from the work itself?

This supposition seems to me to depend on knowledge of fea and hroa, which does not exist in TLOTR, and knowledge that Morgoth spread some of his strength into his servants, which also does not exist in TLOTR.

We actually know very little about the nature of the Ring-wraiths, by this point in the story. About all we do know about the corporeal or spiritual nature of the Ring-wraiths comes from Gandalf’s comment to Bilbo in ‘Many Meetings’, “They are real horses, just as the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.”

Nothing here to suggest other than that the robes and the horses are the ‘masks’. Sure, the Wraiths are ‘nothingness’, but not so nothing that they cannot wear cloaks and ride horses. No evidence to suggest that they become even more ‘nothing’ in the flood. No evidence to suggest that they have, or need, extra enhancement from Sauron to support cloaks or sit on horses.

We don’t get much more later in TLOTR on the corporeal (or in-corporeal) nature of the Nazgul, but we do get, “Merry’s sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.” Again, this sounds like the Nazguls’ ‘nothingness’ is visible ‘nothingness’, but beneath their invisibility, they have some form of bodies still.

Of course, in Corey’s supposition, this corporeality, is bestowed by Sauron, eradicated by the flood, restored by Sauron, and the Ring-wraiths are pure spirit, with no bodily form remaining without Sauron’s intervention. However, I do not think that this interpretation can be supported by evidence from within TLOTR?

Can anyone find other evidence which might support it?

 

[Rachel Port]

In other places Corey said the Nazgul would have to walk or ride back to Mordor after they are unhorsed, so it would take a long time for them to get back, that they are invisible but still corporeal. I never thought that,, I always imagined them at that point as spirits who would sort of drift back. So this class made more sense to me. I think of it as a kind of embodiment. The Maiar can put on bodies like raiment. It seems that the Ringwraiths are embodied in a similar way, but without enough power to be fully physical and visible. It would make sense that they would have to borrow that ability from Sauron, not having it themselves.

I don't see that passage about the killing of the Witch King as a contradiction. They are wearing battle gear, so they would need bodily form to support this the same way they would need form to support the cloaks and boots they wear here. Merry's thrust is described in terms of the garments. He would have aimed at what was visible. Earlier he takes off his hood, and there is a crown but no head. I wonder if he could feel pain except under the circumstatnces of facing a woman and a hobbit. I think not, so the pain he feels from Merry's thrust is the more shocking to him.

Also, two versions of a legend certainly can coexist, even in the same text, like the killing of the witch king by Merry and Eowyn, and the Ringwraiths standing or falling by their master.

Now I'll go and see what I can find in the text. I gave this as how I have understood the matter for years without the Legendarium. Though I don't remember my first read specifically.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Rachel,

It's a perfectly good supposition, from the perspective of the Legendarium. But, I don't think it is supported by evidence from TLOTR?

Even in your post, you are relying on Legendarium material to make the case. "The Maiar can put on bodies like raiment. It seems that the Ringwraiths are embodied in a similar way, but without enough power to be fully physical and visible."

Maiar do not exist in TLOTR. This is entirely a Legendarium concept.

The weight of evidence from TLOTR and 'The Hobbit' seems to indicate (to me) that the Nazgul have become wraiths. They are permanently invisible. Their bodies have faded. They live mostly in 'the wraith world', but they still have enough corporality to wear cloaks and sit on horses. I do not think there is anything that could support the notion that Sauron has to 'boost' them somehow, to allow them to do this. Indeed, there is no evidence that Sauron's powers include being able to 'boost' the physical aspects of people. His power over his minions is mental and spiritual, to empower them with his will, not physical.

 

[Jim Deutch]

I very much like Professor Olsen’s supposition that the Nazgul ‘unmasked’ might have lost all bodily aspects, becoming pure spirit, with virtually no perception of the world, and no option but to return to Sauron, who could ‘mask’ them again. It works well from the perspective of the Legendarium.

However, could this supposition have occurred to even the most close-reading and deductive first-time reader?

I agree it is a bit mysterious as to why the Nazgul can't regroup after the flood. Gandalf says ". . . I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless." It's not very explicit, but I think (and thought, as a many-times reader of LotR only) that empty and shapeless implies that they can no longer interact with material things: can't wear clothes, can't wield weapons, can't even inspire fear and dread. It seems possible that they can't even interact with each other, much less search each other out. All they've got left is a sort of compass pointing -- or a force slowly drawing -- them back towards Sauron, and it's not at all clear even what means of travel they have available: I share Rachel's picture of them sort of drifting towards Mordor, invisible, amorphous, and immaterial.

It's not at all necessary to know about the fea and hroa to understand on this level.

It does get more complicated later in the book, though.
The Nazgul shot out of the sky by Legolas is "soon horsed again", according to Gandalf. And while discussing Saruman's treachery and sudden predicament, he says "He may try to trap the Nazgul, or at least to slay the thing on which it now rides the air. In that case let Rohan look to its horses!" Why couldn't the Nazgul have stolen horses after the flood?

Well, there are many clues that the Nazgul are getting more powerful later in the book: ". . . as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror." As slaves of Sauron and the rings, they reflect his growing strength and purpose, and are no longer so easily discomfited. Or so I guess. And yet, Merry and Eowyn actually kill the Witch-King, not just unmask him, on Pelennor Field. It's a truly mythic moment, though it's not so much in accord with what we've learned before: JRRT has to resort to enchanted swords (well, knife) in order to justify it.

It's all tied together, but perhaps a bit loosely, and maybe we shouldn't look for a complete and satisfying theory of how it works exactly.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Jim,

You make some great points. The one I like best is your concluding remark that 'maybe we shouldn't look for a complete and satisfying theory of how it works exactly'.

I agree. I think that within TLOTR we cannot find enough evidence to construct a complete and satisfying theory of how the Nazgul work exactly. The spooky mysteriousness which surrounds them is part of the power of the book.

One of the unfortunate effects of 'The Legendarium' is to fool us into thinking that we can use that dubious material exactly to construct complete and satisfying theories. Thus, as JRRT pointed out in his lecture 'Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics', we risk foolishly tearing down the tower from which we could see the Sea, to use the stones to build an inferior and more modern house.

 

[Odola]

One of the unfortunate effects of 'The Legendarium' is to fool us into thinking that we can use that dubious material exactly to construct complete and satisfying theories. Thus, as JRRT pointed out in his lecture 'Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics', we risk foolishly tearing down the tower from which we could see the Sea, to use the stones to build an inferior and more modern house.

Yeah, by try to live day in day out in an unmodernized tower... ;-)

Given that Frodo is himself on the way to wraithification Gandalf might be intentionally vage in the description how wraiths work so as not to scare him off and traumatize him further with what the anticipation of what lies ahead of him. So even if Gandalf knows more exact details he will try to express himself in the least frightening words possible even at the expense of technical accuracy - imho. Just enough to have the hobbits understand that the Nazgul are on a temporary time-out.

 

[Beech27]

I think first time readers now--and probably for the last couple decades--largely understand this in gamified terms, not unlike how the Professor explained it. Certainly, having grown up with video games, this is how I understood it upon my first reading: The Wraiths were dead, but not 'permadead.' They were returning to their spawn-point, but couldn't do anything until then. However, scouts needed to confirm this--that they hadn't gained other unknown spawn-points, etc.

Of course Tolkien couldn't have meant any of this, but we can only read backwards with the influences we have, which creates certain anachronisms within the reader's mind.

My suspicion is that Tolkien didn't want first-time readers to be overconcerned with mechanistic speculation, and of course knowledge of the Legendarium adds a great deal to this that LOTR itself does not include. But I think Gandalf is evidence enough to proceed for that audience, and Tolkien often uses him that way, very effectively. This creates a sense of wonder in the reader, both for the world (which is unknowable to us) and Gandalf (who knows so much).

 

[Rachel Port]

It's a perfectly good supposition, from the perspective of the Legendarium. But, I don't think it is supported by evidence from TLOTR?

Even in your post, you are relying on Legendarium material to make the case. "The Maiar can put on bodies like raiment. It seems that the Ringwraiths are embodied in a similar way, but without enough power to be fully physical and visible."

Maiar do not exist in TLOTR. This is entirely a Legendarium concept.

Flammifer, true - and thinking of the Maiar reflects what I've learned since I discovered this class and very much what I was thinking as the professor was talking this session - but the concept is what I have been imagining for years - the Legendarium gave me the words, not the concept. When Bilbo puts on the Ring in The Hobbit, he becomes invisible, as do his clothes, but he still has a shadow in some lights. He still has a body, just not one that can be seen. I do not think the Ringwraiths have shadows. Bilbo hasn't lost his substance, but the wraiths have none. What has happened to them isn't what Gandalf explains in chapter 2 as becoming permanently invisible. It is something more mysterious, probably closer to ghosts than anything else, but something that can be imagined. Similarly, I have always imagined that when Gwaihir tells Gandalf that he weighs almost nothing after his return, that is the exact truth - Gandalf's worldly substance is not completely there is his second incarnation.

My suspicion is that Tolkien didn't want first-time readers to be overconcerned with mechanistic speculation, and of course knowledge of the Legendarium adds a great deal to this that LOTR itself does not include. But I think Gandalf is evidence enough to proceed for that audience, and Tolkien often uses him that way, very effectively. This creates a sense of wonder in the reader, both for the world (which is unknowable to us) and Gandalf (who knows so much).

Exactly. A first-time reader doesn't look for evidence of how this world works, but just luxuriates in the wonder of it all. I'm content with that - but maybe that's because I don't read much fantasy and don't play video games where everything is quantifiable.

I agree. I think that within TLOTR we cannot find enough evidence to construct a complete and satisfying theory of how the Nazgul work exactly. The spooky mysteriousness which surrounds them is part of the power of the book.

I also think that the killing of the Witch King by Eowyn and Merry comes from a different legend. In any mythology, there are different versions of the stories. We find this strongly in the Bible, where different versions of so many stories are still there side by side. In oral cultures, different reciters inevitably go in different directions.

 

[Matt DeForrest]

Even in your post, you are relying on Legendarium material to make the case. "The Maiar can put on bodies like raiment. It seems that the Ringwraiths are embodied in a similar way, but without enough power to be fully physical and visible."

Maiar do not exist in TLOTR. This is entirely a Legendarium concept.

While the Maiar are not explicitly identified in The Lord of the Rings, there are implications of them in Saruman’s death at the end of the book and Gandalf’s reincarnation.

There are two things I would note here that may be of interest, as it applies to the Maiar. The first is that the parallel is worth considering. Evil is supposed to be able to mock and not create, in the way Orcs are cognate to Elves and Trolls are cognate to Ents. In a similar way, the masking of the Nazgul is a cognate of the Maiar incarnating — an act that Sauron would be familiar with.

Also, the dis-carnation of the Nazgul could explain why Gandalf specifically states that Elrond has sent Elves to look for the unmasked Nazgul — because the Elves that live in both worlds would be able to perceive the unmasked Nazgul.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Matt,

Really, there can be no implications of 'Maiar' in TLOTR, without reference to 'The Legendarium'. Saruman's death and Gandalf's reincarnation might lead readers of TLOTR to speculate that they might both be Vala. (Valar are mentioned (and only briefly mentioned) in TLOTR.) Maiar, as a concept do not exist.

Implications of Maiar would be no more likely a supposition than implications of Klingons, as far as TLOTR is concerned.

 

[SwallowedUpInVictory]

We can't do anything but find the theory that most pleases us and stick to it. What we can do though, and always was a good way of coming to terms with Tolkien's vagueness is to ask ourselfs what function and effect does this passage have on us readers.

I think, with this passage we are prepared to the fact hat evil cannot be overcome. It was like this after the first age, when Sauron stepped into the power vacuum. It was like this when Sauron's spirit survived the depths of the sea. It is like this in the Third Age when Sauron rose again, and it will be like this in the coming ages until Dagor Dagorath. We are prepared for the concept of "fighting the long defeat". Evil cannot be destroyed (until maybe Illuvatar himself incarnates). It can only be banished for some time.

This reminds me of "horse and rider he has hurled into the sea". Also after the destruction of Pharaoh and his army, the line of Amalek continued. Similarly, after victory over death, sin still has power over men, until Armageddon. Also after babtism (referncing to the Red Sea incident), Christians are not immune against the sting of death.
Sidenote (not Tolkien's intention): Here I see another parallel or rather an antithesis: The babtized (who wants to be sanctified) gets drawn away from Evil and gains a white raiment, while the Nazgûl (nine being the medieval number of deadly sins) get drawn towards Evil and loses his black cloak.

Which brings us back to the main question: What do the Nazgûl really loose? What is that mask? I just love the theory we discovered in this week's class, that they loose their invisible but perceptual metaphysical bodies and are utterly lost in darkness if they dont reorientate (orient haha) to Sauron's allure. They have no other choice than to return to him. Was quite revealing for me.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi SwallowedUpInVictory,

I like your thought that the fate of the Riders in the ford might be a suggestion that evil cannot be overcome (though this is more explicitly stated in many other places in TLOTR).

Your Biblical connection to the Red Sea is also cool.

I also like the supposition from last week's class. But, I don't like that it depends on 'The Legendarium' for evidence, and cannot be deduced from the book
'
Why does our beloved Professor so often jump to interpretations which depend on 'The Legendarium'? He does not usually do this in his classes. When doing 'The Wizard of Earthsea', he refused to use evidence or interpretations which depended on the following 'Earthsea' books by Ursula LeGuin (and these were published by the author, which 'The Legendarium' was not). In the current study of 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress', we know that Hazel Stone, a minor character in this book, is a major character in another Heinlein book. Does the Professor look to that book to see if it illuminates anything about 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'? No, he does not. (Hurray! in my opinion.)

Early in the class, Corey laid down the principles that we would consider the perspective of the first-time reader, and then the perspective of the whole book, before occasionally looking at the perspective of the entire Legendarium. That policy has long gone out the window, as we often jump right to interpretations which cannot be supported by evidence from within the book. (As we did last week.)

I think it is because the Professor is so immersed in 'The Legendarium', and such a lore geek, that he cannot help doing it.

I am not totally against interpretations which rely on 'The Legendarium' (though I think they should be treated with caution). I really liked this particular interpretation. I wish, however, that in close reading we would first consider what interpretations can be made from evidence within TLOTR, before venturing into the more problematic and dubious evidence which comes from 'The Legendarium'.

 

[Odola]

Hi Matt,

Really, there can be no implications of 'Maiar' in TLOTR, without reference to 'The Legendarium'. Saruman's death and Gandalf's reincarnation might lead readers of TLOTR to speculate that they might both be Vala. (Valar are mentioned (and only briefly mentioned) in TLOTR.) Maiar, as a concept do not exist.

Implications of Maiar would be no more likely a supposition than implications of Klingons, as far as TLOTR is concerned.

Who is Melian then?

 

[Flammifer]

Odola,

As far as we know, from LOTR alone, Melian might be many things. I think the only reference we have to what she is comes from the start of Appendix A, "but her mother was Melian of the people of the Valar".

So, the obvious first conclusion is that she is a Vala. Then, one might wonder whether there are any other 'people of the Valar' other than Vala? If so, who knows what she might be: an enchantress? a witch? a fairy? How would we know? Probably a Vala.

One thing is certain. We would not think that she was a Maia, since that word has never been introduced to us. It does not occur in TLOTR.

 

[Rachel Port]

Flammifer, if we changed the word to Vala, wouldn't the rest still hold?

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Rachel,

I don't think that the rest would still hold. We know almost nothing about the Valar in TLOTR.

The only other mentions of the Valar in TLOTR that I can recall (I don't have one of those handy searchable on-line versions) are also in Appendix A:

Sauron tells Ar-Pharazon that, "the Ban was imposed only to prevent the Kings of Men from surpassing the Valar."

Then, "The Valar laid down their guardianship and called upon the One, and the world was changed."

There is nothing here to indicate that Valar are beings of pure spirit who can cloak themselves in bodily form. Nothing here to suggest that Morgoth could use his powers to shape the physical aspects of creatures or people.

In short, the supposition about what happened to the Nazgul after the ford depends on Legendarium stuff that is not present in TLOTR.

 

[No One in Particular]

The Vala are referenced by the Rangers of Ithilien when the Mumak is about to trample them. "May the Valar turn him aside!"

I don't know of that was in the original version or was added later though; it also doesn't really tell us anything about the Valar themselves, only that, by context, they seem to be deity figures. ("Saints preserve us!" and so forth.)

 

[JJ48]

I very much like Professor Olsen’s supposition that the Nazgul ‘unmasked’ might have lost all bodily aspects, becoming pure spirit, with virtually no perception of the world, and no option but to return to Sauron, who could ‘mask’ them again. It works well from the perspective of the Legendarium.

However, could this supposition have occurred to even the most close-reading and deductive first-time reader? Could it have occurred to a reader who had read TLOTR many times, but not the Legendarium? Can we derive it from the work itself?

I do think much of that theory (or something very similar) could and would occur to many a first-time reader. What do we know about the Ringwraiths? First, we have the name itself. We are told of the Men given the Nine that, "they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants." While it may be possible to read this strictly metaphorically, the very word "wraith" combined with the mention of shadows is likely to put a reader in mind of some kind of incorporeal ghost or spirit.

Second, we have Strider saying that the Riders "do not see the world of light as we do." Not only does their odd vision show that they do not perceive the world as we do, but classifying our world as "the world of light" strengthens their connection to shadows and incorporealness.

Third, we have the line about their robes giving shape to their nothingness. Perhaps this is merely referring to the robes allowing others to see them, but the fact that Tolkien has used "invisible" several times already within the text, and yet here decides to use "nothingness" indicates that there's something more to it than mere visibility.

Fourth, we have the line about them being unmasked. "We hope that they were all unhorsed and unmasked, and so made for a while less dangerous," seems to indicate that losing their horses and cloaks makes them less dangerous. Losing horses would certainly limit their mobility, but losing their cloaks wouldn't really make them much less dangerous, unless there was more to the cloaking than simply throwing clothes over an invisible form. It is reasonable, therefore, to conclude that there is more to the cloaking process.

Finally, we have the results of the scouting. Gandalf says, "It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless." Two points jump out, here. The first is that they are returning to their Master in Mordor. The second is that they are obliged to do so because they are empty and shapeless. The Ringwraiths are not just trying to regroup, but are actually rather helpless and impotent until they return, and presumably, their Master is needed to help them solve their predicament.

Would a first-time reader know all about Valar and Maiar and parallels to the Legendarium? No. However, there seems to be more than enough here for readers to conclude that the Ringwraiths are less than fully corporeal, and need some aid from Sauron to achieve their full, menacing potential.

 

[Odola]

Flammifer, if we changed the word to Vala, wouldn't the rest still hold?

I agree with you here completely. The subdistinctions of the Ainur in rank do not change any of their nature's mechanics. If they are called "Maiar" or "people of the Valar" is just a terminology question, not any of real essence imho. And Ainur (named "Valar" and "people of the Valar") are part of TLOTR.

 

[Rachel Port]

I do think much of that theory (or something very similar) could and would occur to many a first-time reader. What do we know about the Ringwraiths? First, we have the name itself. We are told of the Men given the Nine that, "they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants." While it may be possible to read this strictly metaphorically, the very word "wraith" combined with the mention of shadows is likely to put a reader in mind of some kind of incorporeal ghost or spirit.

Thank you JJ48. You gave the places in the text that I have been using all these years to form my idea of the Nazgul and what happens to them after the flood swept them away.