Where were Elladan and Elrohir? (also a note on Arwen) Book 2 chapter 3

Bruce N H

Active Member
Hey all,

I was thinking about the sons of Elrond. And have a question - where were they during chapters 1, 2 and 3 of book 2?

Here is some data:
October 24 - feast in Rivendell - Frodo sees Arwen for the first time "But her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry; for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North"
Then a couple of hours later in the Hall of Fire, Strider tells Bilbo he skipped the feast (and the chance of seeing Arwen) because "Elladan and Elrohir have returned out of the Wild unlooked-for, and they had tidings that I wished to hear at once."
October 25 - Council of Elrond - no mention of Elladan and Elrohir - they surely would have been top voices if they were there, especially since they have been out and about and would have news for that first part of the Council where "much was said of events in the world outside".
"Later that day" (presumably after poor Bilbo gets his lunch) the hobbits meet in Bilbo's room. Gandalf says "Some of the scouts have been sent out already. ... And Aragorn has gone with Elrond's sons."
- nearly 2 months pass -
As "December was passing" the "scouts began to return". We get that some crossed the mountains. "The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode into a strange country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to Elrond."

So back to my question here - where were Elladan and Elrohir on the morning of October 25? They got back to Rivendell in the evening of the 24th, and they left with Aragorn (so this has to be after the Council) by the afternoon of the 25th. Were they at the Council (likely) but just didn't say anything (unlikely). Did Frodo not think they were important and so didn't mention them in his account (unlikely in the year post RotK when Frodo was writing this). Did they just sleep in because they were tired after their long journey and preparing for the next one? Were they out scouting around the outskirts of Rivendell making doubly sure the Nazgul were gone?

BTW, this also raises the question of Strider's journey. He left with Elladan and Elrohir but must have come back before them, since the narrative says they were last to return. Some of the Scouts (including Elladan and Elrohir) went over the mountains to the Gladden Fields, to Rhosgobel, and returned over the Redhorn Gate. But Elladan and Elrohir had made a "great journey" down the Silverlode to Lorien. Was Strider with them? So maybe they split up at that point, with Strider returning to Rivendell and skipping the visit to his future in-laws? Seems a little odd since it wasn't such a "great journey" if they were already in the Dimrill Dale - it was like a day's walk, especially if you don't have hobbits to slow you down. So maybe Aragorn split off earlier - heading north once they reached the Gladden Fields.
-oops, further evidence- I skipped an earlier line: "others had gone west, and with the help of Aragorn and the Rangers had searched the lands far down the Greyflood, as far as Tharbad," So maybe Elladan, Elrohir, and Strider went on a shorter scouting mission immediately after the Council, but later returned to Rivendell and then set out on longer missions - Elladan and Elrohir to the east, ultimately to Lorien, and Strider to the west.

One last note - at the feast on October 24 it says of Arwen "Long she had been in the land of her mother’s kin, in Lórien beyond the mountains, and was but lately returned to Rivendell to her father’s house." Bilbo's question to Strider later in the Hall of Fire makes it sound like he hadn't had a chance to see her yet, but Strider arrived in Rivendell on October 20. I guess Strider would have immediately gone out with scouts to look for the Nazgul, but still you'd think he would have spent some time with his girlfriend, even if he does often "put mirth aside". But there's a strange discrepancy. The Tale of Years says that in 3009 "Elrond sends for Arwen, and she returns to Imladris; the Mountains and all lands eastward are becoming dangerous." - nine years before the Council. So did she come home to Rivendell in 3009, then at some point go back again to Lorien, only to "but lately [return] to her father's house" in October of 3018?
 
Last edited:
Hey all,

I was thinking about the sons of Elrond. And have a question - where were they during chapters 1, 2 and 3 of book 2?

Here is some data:
October 24 - feast in Rivendell - Frodo sees Arwen for the first time "But her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry; for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North"
Then a couple of hours later in the Hall of Fire, Strider tells Bilbo he skipped the feast (and the chance of seeing Arwen) because "Elladan and Elrohir have returned out of the Wild unlooked-for, and they had tidings that I wished to hear at once."
October 25 - Council of Elrond - no mention of Elladan and Elrohir - they surely would have been top voices if they were there, especially since they have been out and about and would have news for that first part of the Council where "much was said of events in the world outside".
"Later that day" (presumably after poor Bilbo gets his lunch) the hobbits meet in Bilbo's room. Gandalf says "Some of the scouts have been sent out already. ... And Aragorn has gone with Elrond's sons."
- nearly 2 months pass -
As "December was passing" the "scouts began to return". We get that some crossed the mountains. "The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode into a strange country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to Elrond."

So back to my question here - where were Elladan and Elrohir on the morning of October 25? They got back to Rivendell in the evening of the 24th, and they left with Aragorn (so this has to be after the Council) by the afternoon of the 25th. Were they at the Council (likely) but just didn't say anything (unlikely). Did Frodo not think they were important and so didn't mention them in his account (unlikely in the year post RotK when Frodo was writing this). Did they just sleep in because they were tired after their long journey and preparing for the next one? Were they out scouting around the outskirts of Rivendell making doubly sure the Nazgul were gone?

BTW, this also raises the question of Strider's journey. He left with Elladan and Elrohir but must have come back before them, since the narrative says they were last to return. Some of the Scouts (including Elladan and Elrohir) went over the mountains to the Gladden Fields, to Rhosgobel, and returned over the Redhorn Gate. But Elladan and Elrohir had made a "great journey" down the Silverlode to Lorien. Was Strider with them? So maybe they split up at that point, with Strider returning to Rivendell and skipping the visit to his future in-laws? Seems a little odd since it wasn't such a "great journey" if they were already in the Dimrill Dale - it was like a day's walk, especially if you don't have hobbits to slow you down. So maybe Aragorn split off earlier - heading north once they reached the Gladden Fields.
-oops, further evidence- I skipped an earlier line: "others had gone west, and with the help of Aragorn and the Rangers had searched the lands far down the Greyflood, as far as Tharbad," So maybe Elladan, Elrohir, and Strider went on a shorter scouting mission immediately after the Council, but later returned to Rivendell and then set out on longer missions - Elladan and Elrohir to the east, ultimately to Lorien, and Strider to the west.

One last note - at the feast on October 24 it says of Arwen "Long she had been in the land of her mother’s kin, in Lórien beyond the mountains, and was but lately returned to Rivendell to her father’s house." Bilbo's question to Strider later in the Hall of Fire makes it sound like he hadn't had a chance to see her yet, but Strider arrived in Rivendell on October 20. I guess Strider would have immediately gone out with scouts to look for the Nazgul, but still you'd think he would have spent some time with his girlfriend, even if he does often "put mirth aside". But there's a strange discrepancy. The Tale of Years says that in 3009 "Elrond sends for Arwen, and she returns to Imladris; the Mountains and all lands eastward are becoming dangerous." - nine years before the Council. So did she come home to Rivendell in 3009, then at some point go back again to Lorien, only to "but lately [return] to her father's house" in October of 3018?
Lately might be relative. For elves it is. And this explain a little why she doesn't act as the Lady of Rivendell which she should have given that her mother has sailed.
 
I think the best way to make all these statements congruent is:

1. Nine years is 'lately' to Elves, and that is when Arwen returned to Rivendell.
2. Elladan and Elrohir were scouting the near environs of Rivendell during the Council.
3. The Sons and Aragorn set out together soon after the Council, but split up after one more sweep around the Rivendell region. The sons heading for Lorien, Aragorn heading down the Greyflood to Tharbad.

The greater mystery is why did scouts have to be sent to such far flung places, and why did the Company have to wait for them all to return before setting off?

5. Simply because JRRT decided it was very important to have the Company set off on Christmas Day.
 
As I wrote elsewhere, I think of Elladan and Elrohir's absence at the Council as evidence that when the Council was first laid out and the substance of what was said there written, they didn't exist in Tolkien's mind, and adding them just didn't seem important enough to change it. Surely they would have had much to say that was relevant - Aragorn was with them for a long time the night before, after all. Pretty far on in the writing there is no mention of their leaving with Aragorn at all. In The Treason of Isengard, they aren't even in the index; they are only mentioned as not being in the text yet.

Bruce, I think Bilbo's question to Aragorn about missing the feast is teasing him for not taking every opportunity of being with Arwen; I don't see it as implying they hadn't seen each other before.
 
I agree that the absence of Elladan and Elrohir in Tolkien's writing is due to their not being invented. I think when we were going through the HOME books we talked about the wedding to Arwen being almost an afterthought that JRRT then went back and worked into the text, including that paragraph from the feast which basically lays out Elrond's whole family. That said, though, it's (IMO) more fun to speculate why things are within the logic of the story, rather than the metanarrative about how JRRT wrote the book. But I definitely agree with everything you said there.
 
Yes, I understand that. But sometimes when people are jumping through hoops to make things fit that simply don't fit, I think the metahistory helps to explain why they don't all fit. Hell, when the story got to Lorien, there was a moment when Galadriel was Elrond's wife, wasn't there? The books on the writing of LOTR helped get me through the COVID shutdown, so they are fresh in my mind. I do a lot of speculating, but it tends to be more about motivations and actions of characters than logistics, and it's definitely one of the reasons I enjoy this class so much.
 
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