Amazon series:reactions and thoughts (Spoiler alert!)
- Thread starter Haerangil
- Start date
Odola
Well-Known Member
Still my point it how are they supposed to tell the story if they clearly do not understand it? Of course the plot and dialogue must come out weird if they do not understand what the point of the whole story is?
Imho Tolkien's stories main layers are:
- linguistic
- pseudo-historical
- metaphysical/philosophical
If they are not interested in any of those what they end up with is just: "random people with randomly achaised clothes/equipment randomly running around" - which is not very compelling.
Tolkien was not much into psychology or character development.
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The costumes aren't great, but it's not a 'primitive' thing - it's that costumes can and should be used to differentiate the different cultures, and they're...not really doing that? And too much monochromatic stuff. Yes, Gil-galad is king. But he shouldn't be gold-on-gold-on-gold! Add some blue to that color palette, let the fancy embroidery on his outfit stand out in contrast to the color of the fabric - gold thread on gold is...lost.
I am fine with them not using Njila Dixon and coming up with their own original designs. But I am overall disappointed with their efforts thus far.
I am fine with them not using Njila Dixon and coming up with their own original designs. But I am overall disappointed with their efforts thus far.
Odola
Well-Known Member
But what about the citation:
The Elves were not as perfect in this era as they are when we see them 6,000 years later, in the Third Age.
New details and curiosities about The Rings of Power costumes - Fellowship of Fans
Kate Hawley has recently spoken about the huge work that the production has done for The Rings of Power, revealing interesting details about the costumes.
fellowshipoffans.com
This was what they intended their elvish custumes to be about. How could they get the whole premise as wrong at this?
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
So they didn't get the whole culture in decline thing. I am not shocked. They came up wirt the elves being addicted to the leaves of certain trees without them they die and mithril being created by a Silmaril in a tree and an elf lord and a Balrog fighting a dualist battle for it! Yes, its apocryphic they say, i know.
I'm done with being frustrated with that show. I'll probably binge season 2 never the less, out of interest what else they eff up.
I'm done with being frustrated with that show. I'll probably binge season 2 never the less, out of interest what else they eff up.
Odola
Well-Known Member
But that exactly is a side effect of them not getting what the core of the elvish problem is. What the elves needed the rings for. To slow down the decline. If the show's authors do not get the decline, they have to invent abstuse problems the rings are there to solve - this is the core of the problem with the show - not understanding what the original story is about.
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Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
The elves in the 2nd age are far from their decline in the 3rd age. I don’t know what Kate Hawley mean by ‘perfect’ in the 3rd age in that interview. We mostly only ever see the LOTR elves from the perspective of the Hobbits who, understandably, see them as perfect and otherworldly so maybe that‘s what she has picked up on. The challenge for RoP is to present Elves from within their own culture at a time before the fading seriously kicked in when they were still ‘effectual’ in the world. I doubt the Elves themselves saw themselves as ‘perfect’. We see more of their foibles in this series because we are seeing them from their own perspective. I can see they are playing on the extreme artistry aspect, but I do think this was the least developed culture on screen of all of the cultures they were portraying. It is one of the things I hope they improve on next season. I loved the look of the costumes overall (with a couple of exceptions).
And I see no evidence that the authors are not ‘getting’ the decline of the Elves. It is precisely why they are making the rings. That’s a separate issue to the origin of mithril story (which is questioned by Elrond anyway). The Tree is a symbol (as Elrond also says).
And I see no evidence that the authors are not ‘getting’ the decline of the Elves. It is precisely why they are making the rings. That’s a separate issue to the origin of mithril story (which is questioned by Elrond anyway). The Tree is a symbol (as Elrond also says).
Odola
Well-Known Member
? But elves decline continously - the Noldor from their height in Valinor, the Sindar from their height in Doriath, they are completely foccussed on their past where lays their glory and their hope. Elves of the 2nd age are less than they were in the 1st age and those of the 3rd age are less than they were in the 2nd (and even more so than in the 1st). That is the point of their story. Elves are not into progress, they are about keeping as much of the past alive as possible.
That is why they create the elven rings in the books - to slow down the decline. This is why time flows slower both in Rivendell and in Lothlorien. So with the rings their decline is slower. Insomuch in the 2nd age elves should be much less than they were in the 1st but sligthly more advanced than they will be in the 3rd as the elven rings slow the decline down. So they should get "less and less perfect" in their magical power, in their skills, in their "technology", in their mastery of the world and of history, and with it in the sophistication of their clothing. As such their 2nd age clothing should be grander and more refined than it is in the 3rd age, not the other way round.
No, that is why the rings are made in the books, in RoP they are making the rings to stop the tree and all the elves from dying of a "plague" in a mere few months from now - elvish decline over millenia is not even a concept in RoP... As such they have invented the "plague" to have a reason to make the elven rings in the 1st place, otherwise it would make no sense in RoP.
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Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
The elves in RoP don’t really understand what is happening to them. I’m waiting to find out more before I make a final judgment on whether the people making the show are mistrepresenting the essence of ‘fading’.
And I agree that the Elves are in decline as soon as they set foot in Middle-earth from Valinor, but they are still going to be completely awesome by any standards. after all, Gil-Galad leads an awesome army in the battle of the Last Alliance. And Lindon and Eregion are described as great cities/kingdoms.
And I agree that the Elves are in decline as soon as they set foot in Middle-earth from Valinor, but they are still going to be completely awesome by any standards. after all, Gil-Galad leads an awesome army in the battle of the Last Alliance. And Lindon and Eregion are described as great cities/kingdoms.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Of couse, but the costume designer implied they deliberately made the show's elvish costumes "less" (="nor as perfect as") than those in the 3rd age [in Perer Jackson's movies I assume] as the elves were "not as perfect" in the 2nd age as in the 3rd. This is completely misunderstanding and misrepresenting elvish culture by the show's creators.
Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
As I said in my original response, I’m not sure what she meant by ‘perfect’. I don’t think it necessarily means morally better or technologically more advanced. If she did mean this, I agree this is not quite right but it is a bit extreme to take one member of the creative team’s quote (which presumably was cut from a longer quote) and extrapolate that the show is completely misunderstanding Elvish culture. There’s a lot that is very consistent with what I understand of Elvish culture in this in-between period between the first age and the end of the third age.
Odola
Well-Known Member
"morally better" clothes?
More or less perfect clothes - that makes sense. And for sure 2nd age elvish clothes should be "more perfect" than 3rd age ones, not less.
The costumes and characters development
“A big part of filling in the gaps meant understanding the individual characters and where their races were in their evolution. Then I worked backwards to determine what they might look like at the time. The Dwarves were in their golden age, the Harfoots were trying to find a home, and the Númenóreans were in a time where they were perceived as godlike beings. The Elves were not as perfect in this era as they are when we see them 6,000 years later, in the Third Age. I thought there was an opportunity to tell that story of time with garments that had a certain age to them.”
New details and curiosities about The Rings of Power costumes - Fellowship of Fans
Kate Hawley has recently spoken about the huge work that the production has done for The Rings of Power, revealing interesting details about the costumes.
fellowshipoffans.com
Evolution is the key word here. But elves devolve, they do not evolve.
Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
Her use of the term ‘perfect’ comes after a sentence where she is talking about Numenoreans ‘perceived as godlike beings’ (ie. perceived by others). She is not talking specifically about clothes when she says that ‘The Elves were not as perfect’ - I took this to mean ‘not perfect as perceived by others’ (so parallel to her point about Numenoreans). We certainly see this in other’s attitudes towards Elves. I have no idea what she means about garments having a certain age about them. BUt it doesn’t seem related to fading or decline or otherwise.
Odola
Well-Known Member
The whole passage is about clothes and how people in them appear. So Numenorean appear as "godlike" and so their clothes reflect that - see the intricate clothing of Miriel and even the chemise of the dying king. The elves are "less" in RoP according to the citation so they clothes are "less" in 2nd age than in the 3rd age and "less" than those of the Numenoreans - which make no sense according to the books - Numenor is great in human terms but still not as great as the elves that they descent from - clothes of the High Elves should be always above those of even Numenor - I would grant some concession to some wild Avari tribes in the East which might be more primitive, but even the Sindar should have better clothes than Numenor at any time. Even an Avarin tailor had millenia to perfect his craft and s/he had centuries to complete an oufit, no way s/he would be outdone by a mortal tailor with only decades of experience and a few months at most to construct an outfit.
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Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
But the High Elven costumes did look richer (and different) from the human ones. Goodness, look at Gil-Galad’s getup. That screamed Noldor at me.
Odola
Well-Known Member
? From Miriel's finery and variety? Which of those looked as if took longer in making in sheer working hours? And note that even if Miriel can have hundreds of seamstresses Gil-Galad has some with far more skilled fingers, who work far faster, who see better, and that even in the dark under the stars - so are not dependant on lamps or candels at night, sleep far less, do not pick themselves in the fingers and can spend 500 years on an outfit with no problem. Whose clothes should be finer, more intricate, more individual, with more details and better fitted?
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Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
Yes, basically. Galadriel’s golden gown and over-cloak which blended into the forest floor was also extremely intricate, as is the embroidery on all of Elrond’s costumes (although no jewels on his). The clothes were also inspired by the pre-Raphaelite aesthetic which seems appropriate, given Tolkien’s own tastes. I was more critical of the Valinor costumes but can see what they were going for with plain whites and ‘innocence’.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Please where do you see any intricate emboidery here? And the bulky runes seem anything but sophisticated?
Now compare Miriel's dress here with several layers, beaded nets on the shoulders, several ornate belts, hanging temple ornament and jevelry.
several beld https://64.media.tumblr.com/caae088...077c56b6fceed3e30b193e4ceec7a71417f74f9e.gifv
Which took longer to make?
Now compare Miriel's dress here with several layers, beaded nets on the shoulders, several ornate belts, hanging temple ornament and jevelry.
several beld https://64.media.tumblr.com/caae088...077c56b6fceed3e30b193e4ceec7a71417f74f9e.gifv
Which took longer to make?
Ilana Mushin
Well-Known Member
This discussion has moved way past your original point about Hawley’s quote about ‘perfect’ third age Elves. I don’t see the length of time it might take a team of mortal or immortal seamsters a big deal for what they are trying to depict about the different cultures.