Amazon series:reactions and thoughts (Spoiler alert!)

Odola

Well-Known Member
The black characters do not fit because the story is postmodern and are random, but because their backstory is irrelevant.
Exactly. There is no logic behing anything. Their skin could be pink or turquoise - it would fit as much or as little - it has no reason nor purpose. The characters are no agents - they just react to circumstances - as such it does not matter at all who or what they are...
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I disagree.They matter as much as Haldir, Galion, The slant eyed Southerner, Forlong, Snaga, or many others matter. On Arondir i am not quite sure, because so far we have only met him and as such cannot say who he is or will be.The others... possibly.
 

kanji_d

Active Member
Another little bit about Numenor that bothered me - Miriel has to ask Pharazon who Elendil is. Obviously this is just an excuse for exposition, but she should know who he is! Even if he has been ousted as Lord of Andunie (which Pharazon's answer implied), he is still Miriel's cousin, and the eldest line descendant of Elros. Speaking of which, they seem to have simply cut Amandil, and though I regret the loss of the Earendil callback, I can see why it was done.

I admit it's possible Miriel is still sympathetic to her father and the Faithful, which would give reason for Pharazon to take over once Tar-Palantir dies. And I've not read the versions of the Akallabeth from HoME XII that have Miriel be legitimately in love with Pharazon. So this is, I suppose substantiated by Tolkien's writings. I think the story works from a dramatic perspective, it just feels very different to Tolkien's story.
 
Alright and welcome back to Dillon has thoughts about The Rings of Power, Episode 3! Most of my thoughts for this focus on Númenor because that's where we saw new things. But let's just jump in....
I agree with you, Dillon. There was something slightly 'off' about the depiction of Númenor. I can't quite put my finger on it but it disturbed me. Visually stunning, I wanted to see more of the city (which I'm guessing is a combined Armenelos/Rómenna). The city is almost like a character itself & a few more brief clips of daily life there would have helped enormously by way of introduction. The scene with Isildur saving a fellow sailor-in-training was rushed & unconvincing. The immediate hostility & lack of curiosity of the sailors on Elendil's ship when Galadriel & Halbrand came on board was also puzzling & overstated. There were a few other superficial flaws, which I won't belabour. Overall, the depiction wasn't as perfect as I had hoped.

My own suspicion is that we've not seen Míriel's true hand. I think she's hiding her real thoughts/beliefs from Pharazon & everyone else. Her Faithfulness is shrouded in secret for now. (I'll probably end up with egg on my face about this - but there it is.)

I would have to respectfully disagree with a couple of you about Galadriel. I think she's spot on! Fierce and determined - I absolutely love her. Nevertheless, I think she's about to be fooled by the fair-faced Halbrand.
 
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Another little bit about Numenor that bothered me - Miriel has to ask Pharazon who Elendil is. Obviously this is just an excuse for exposition, but she
Agreed. It seems far fetched to imagine Míriel unaware of Elendil.
But there could be a few explanations -
- Míriel and Elendil are play-acting to keep Pharazon from suspecting foul play (best scenario),
- Elendil purposefully keeping a low profile to protect himself and the other Faithful from further bans & restrictions,
- Pharazon purposefully keeping information from Míriel as a means of keeping the upper hand,
- Míriel is a really bad Queen Regent & can't tell cake from bread (worst scenario, obviously).
 
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Ilana Mushin

Active Member
I think we have to be patient and let the story unfold and things that seem ‘off’ for now may turn out to be explained later - or we will no longer see them as ‘off’ because we can see how it serves to tell the story they are telling. I love Galadriel as an unlikable character - the story will be how she becomes likeable. I really hope her relationship with Celeborn is a key part of her healing. She is playing someone who is a) used to being in command and b) suffering deeply from trauma which we see in her complete obsession with hunting for Sauron. A lot of people have asked her how many have to die for her obsession which so far she has no answer for. I felt the story really got going in Ep3 with understanding what Sauron might be up to and the introduction of Numenor.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I would have to respectfully disagree with a couple of you about Galadriel. I think she's spot on! Fierce and determined - I absolutely love her. Nevertheless, I think she's about to be fooled by the fair-faced Halbrand.
But she is also: stupid, illogical, socially inept, overbearing, entitled, undiplomatic, graceless, capricious, contraditory and unconsistant, both self-centered and self-unaware - the only daughter of the King of all Noldor Finarfir - completely unladylike! A disgrace to her House, really. And most of all - unelvish in her attitude and behaviour. She has been completely deconstructed as a character - maybe beyond repair. Whatever her arc, most of what she can become to be consistent within her character is merely bearable - I do not see how she can ever become admirable starting out like that.

I have heard plenty of viewers express that the general unlikeability of the heroes makes them start to side with Morgoth - they feel like they would like the orcs to clean this whole place out. I would not go that far but the show seems to stretch the viewers' patience to a degree to make some of them much irritated. I myself am unable to stomach each episode in one going - I have to divide it into pieces to watch it with pauses in-between. Is this what was aimed for?
 
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Goodness, gracious me, Odola! Those are strong sentiments.
Now this is a very strange thing - because I just rewatched the third episode, this time *not* in a state of sleep deprivation - and things made so much more sense than when I made my post a few hours ago based on initial viewing. There might still be one scene I'm not convinced by, but aside from that, I found myself hypnotized, entranced - a near-perfect hour of screen time. And so visually beautiful! There's nothing to it, I'll have to watch it again.

I'm still convinced the seeming inconsistencies will become clear & much more convinced Míriel is on the side of the Faithful & is hiding things from Pharazon.

But Odola, you must have very strict thoughts on what constitutes 'lady-like'. To my eyes, Galadriel as she is portrayed here is nothing but loveliness - wounded and angry, yes. Determined, yes. But lovely all the same.
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
To me Galadriel is behaving exactly as I would expect a Noldor commander used to having her orders followedto behave, especailly in interactions with humans where she has hardly interacted possibly for centuries. She probably is still smarting from her team defying her when she was defying the High King. She is proud and driven and terribly damaged. Her healing will be a big part of the story told over seasons - it won’t happen in season 1. She’s certainly not stupid! She is carrying the trauma of the death of the trees, followed by the deaths of so many of her kin. Not everyone has reacted this way. I can speak from personal experience of PTSD - her portrayal is very real to me.

On another point - I’ve noticed that so many of the actors have such amazing eyes (standouts are Galadriel, Nori and Arondir so far). There is a lot of focus on eyes in the camera work. Tolkien often drew characterisations from eyes (as bright, piercing, kind, etc) so this seems very appropriate.
 
To me Galadriel is behaving exactly as I would expect a Noldor commander
On another point - I’ve noticed that so many of the actors have such amazing eyes (standouts are Galadriel, Nori and Arondir so far). There is a lot of focus on eyes in the camera work. Tolkien often drew characterisations from eyes (as bright, piercing, kind, etc) so this seems very appropriate.
Great observation on the eyes, Iliana. Beauty affects us, no doubt about it.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
No i agree with Odola on this point, Galadriel often looks stupid and illogical, and that is a problem with the shows narration. Whatever her problems were , as a character, it is not like she could not perceive at all how people are and do react.Mortal or elf.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Now that i have seen e3...

I am once again divided.All in all i think it was entertaining but had its weaknesses. Most of all i really disliked Galadriel, like Odola already stated she does not seem very elvish to me, she actually comes about like a very immature person, not a thousands of years old immortal.Also she is weak, greedy for drink and food, needs longer than Halbrand to recover...
Worst was her horseriding scene , that was cringe, i had to cover my eyes, also her dialogue to Halbrand was terrible.

The Proto-Hobbits also lost some of my sympathies, their dance-parade was awful, and like Galadriels dialogue to Halbrand was a bad Aragorn-ripoff Sadoc gave a bad Bilbo's birthday speech imitation.

Not good! I liked most of Numenor but... they seem to have cut out Numenors slavery and colonialism! All folks of seemingly mixed descend appear to be freemen, no Peregrini or Underclass citizens.I cannot support this, blinding out Numenors bad sides with slavery, racism and imperialism is a terrible decision!

And what about Halbrand? The guy fights well for a lower man who is supposed to be smaller and weaker than Numenorean humans, who are ... also a bad choice, simply normal humans and NOT more strong, taller and more gifted than the lesser men. I am not sure how that story shall ever work out the way its supposed to be!

That Warg was really bad cgi also!

Quite disappointing, though the non-Tolkien storylines really reminded me of silmfilms Frame , which is interesting in itself for Silmfilm i think.
 
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Ilana Mushin

Active Member
Really interesting to hear your different viewpoints.

I am once again divided.All in all i think it was entertaining but had its weaknesses. Most of all i really disliked Galadriel, like Odola already stated she does not seem very elvish to me, she actually comes about like a very immature person, not a thousands of years old immortal.Also she is weak, greedy for drink and food, needs longer than Halbrand to recover...

- I understood her taking longer to recover because she had been swimming for goodness knows how long before she ended up on the raft + she nearly drowned. I don't see the problem with her being hungry at that point.

Worst was her horseriding scene , that was cringe, i had to cover my eyes, also her dialogue to Halbrand was terrible.

- see I liked the horse-riding scene because it showed something of the elvishness about Galadriel - she take joy in riding, she can live in the moment after her taxing experience (which includes being in a place where she is not wanted). I thought that the slomo went on for a bit too long but her smile was so warming. It reminded me of how Tolkien describes the Elves' perception of time (through Legolas) as moving both slowly and quickly.

The Proto-Hobbits also lost some of my sympathies, their dance-parade was awful, and like Galadriels dialogue to Halbrand was a bad Aragorn-ripoff Sadoc gave a bad Bilbo's birthday speech imitation.

- I thought it was good. It showed more of Harfoot culture which I think has been developed with some sophistication. I liked the nod to Bilbo's farewell speech. I thought the writing was good in this section.

Not good! I liked most of Numenor but... they seem to have cut out Numenors slavery and colonialism! All folks of seemingly mixed descend appear to be freemen, no Peregrini or Underclass citizens.I cannot support this, blinding out Numenors bad sides with slavery, racism and imperialism is a terrible decision!

- We only saw Numenor for the first time this episode so I'm not bothered that they didn't say anything explicit about colonialism. I think that they are going to be accusing the Elves of colonialism and so it will be nicely ironic if they are doing that themselves. One of the things I like about this series so far is that they are not trying to explain everything all at once (e.g. Noldor was mentioned for the first time here, suggesting that the division of elves may come up later - possibly when Celeborn and Oropher/Thranduil show up). The Valar were mentioned without explanation as well. That will get fleshed out. We got Elros and Anarion name dropped without much explanation so I expect to find out more about these characters as we go on in the show.

One possibilyt for colonialism is that it is once Pharazon seizes the throne that they start subjegating the humans of middle earth - which serves to push them further into Sauron's arms.

And what about Halbrand? The guy figgts well for a lower man who is supposed to be smaller and weaker than Numenorean humans, who are ... also a bad chouce, simply normal humans and NOT more strong, taller and more gifted than the lesser men. I am not sure how that story shall ever work out the way its supposed to be!

- We don't know enough about Halbrand to know anything about where he is from and what his story is. that will be a slow reveal I suspect. I'm not sure what you mean 'the way its supposed to be' because we don't know his story. He is called a 'low man' by the other working Numenoreans but that is their perspective.

That Warg was really bad cgi also!

- agree. I was disappointed by the Warg.

Quite disappointing, though the non-Tolkien storylines really reminded me of silmfilms Frame , which is interesting in itself for Silmfilm i think.
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Odola

Well-Known Member
The grin in the horse-riding scene was overdone. 1st - it was not a very flattering angle - I've heard opinions that if she had been painted green Galadriel would look goblin-like in this scene. 2nd - as some commenters put it, it makes it seem like "Galadriel's father has not given her a pony when she was 12" and that this is the reason why her character became this awfull. A small reluctant smile breaking out against will through her otherwise always cold forbidding expression would have fitted the story much better - it would show that she is warming up to Numenor and starts to somewhat trust Elendil. As it was it just showed that she is irrationally crazy about horses - which seems to have nothing to do with the story.

The issues with Halbrand I do partially understand - if they want to lead or mislead us into thinking he might be Sauron - then some of it makes sense. But if he can conjure money out of thin air - then why not a guild badge? Or did he want to get in jail to make sure that he is not shipped away with Galadriel to ME? If Galadriel seems through him and is playing him by pretending to be as inept as she seems here just to fool him into returning to ME with her where she can watch him - she should not have been showed as that inept before she even met him?
 
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Ilana Mushin

Active Member
The grin in the horse-riding scene was overdone. 1st it was not a very flattering angle - I've hard opinions that if she had been painted green Galadriel would look goblin-like in the scene. 2nd -as some commenters put it, it makes it seem like "Galadriel's father has not given her a pony when she was 12" and that this is the reason why her character became this awefull. A small reluctant smile breaking out against will through her otherwise always cold forbidding expression would have fitted the story much better - it would show that she is warming up to Numenor and starts to somewhat trust Elendil. So as it was it just showed that she is irrationally crazy about horses - which seems to have nothing to do with the story.
I think that some of the things in the plot and characterisation that seem 'illogical' or 'irrational' at this point are because we don't yet have enough information, but they are thought through and may make sense in time. They need to establish Galadriel as a keen horsewoman so that she can lead a cavalry charge in a later episode. I'm guessing that's part of what is going on here. We don't yet know so much - which is something I'm enjoying about the show - the slow reveal.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I think that some of the things in the plot and characterisation that seem 'illogical' or 'irrational' at this point are because we don't yet have enough information, but they are thought through and may make sense in time. They need to establish Galadriel as a keen horsewoman so that she can lead a cavalry charge in a later episode. I'm guessing that's part of what is going on here. We don't yet know so much - which is something I'm enjoying about the show - the slow reveal.
There are so few episodes left that there would be not time enough to reveal all in a satifactionary way. Imho they overloaded the story with hints most of which simply cannot be unraveled without being rushed or left unexplained.

Also, because it takes so long for the story to come together many "normies" stop to care. As they do not care about the characters just because they know them from the books, they have nobody to root for.
 
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Ilana Mushin

Active Member
There are so few episodes left that there would be not time enough to reveal all in a satifactionary way. Imho they overloaded the story with hints most of which simply cannot be unraveled without being rushed or left unexplained.

Also, because it takes so long for the story to come together many "normies" stop to care. As they do not care about the characters just because they know them from the books, they have nobody to root for.
Five more in this season and then another 4 seasons? I think some things won't make proper sense until later seasons. I feel that I have to wait until I've seen the whole thing before being able to judge whether it was satisfactory or not. So far I'm enjoying the ride.
 

Rob Harding

Well-Known Member
There are so few episodes left that there would be not time enough to reveal all in a satifactionary way. Imho they overloaded the story with hints most of which simply cannot be unraveled without being rushed or left unexplained.

Also, because it takes so long for the story to come together many "normies" stop to care. As they do not care about the characters just because they know them from the books, they have nobody to root for.
I really don’t think that a fair assessment. There’s plenty of slow paced shows not based on IPs. In which case, people don’t know those characters. I only really recognise two characters and the fact I know their names is very beside the point. I’m enjoying these characters arcs and certainly rooting for people I’ve never met before. That’s just good storytelling. If I’m only rooting for people because I recognise their names and not because their stories here are engaging, then it’s failed. I think the stories are engaging and so don’t plenty of people I know who’ve never read Tolkien. Not knowing characters doesn’t really have much to do with things. Yes, you get more initial buy in into a known IP but people don’t stop watching if they don’t know characters. They stop watching if the story isn’t engaging. And a slow paced story can still be engaging.

I get some people don’t love slow paced television but I love it. The pacing feels similar to Game of Thrones in that it takes a long time to cover a lot of storylines. And while one may not personally love that style of storytelling I think the enormous fan base that show had shows that people aren’t put off by it if they enjoy the characters. I think the people who are more put off by this show tend to be those with knowledge who are waiting to see how elements they recognise manifest and coalesce. All other fans are along for the ride.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
All other fans are along for the ride.
Not all. There are non-book-readers who are clearly put off by the "Karen&Mary Sue" Galadriel and do finds the overall story boring - which is the most common accusation I do hear. My husband - who is not a Tolkien fan and has not read the books - fell asleep during the 3rd episode. And that seems to occur quite often - at least it gets reported often.
 
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