Announcement: Season 6 of Silm Film will begin on December 2, 2021!

Octoburn

Active Member
Just a few random thought on my end... and yes, I know much of this is putting the fellbeast way ahead of the Nazgul... or is it the other way around? Nevertheless.

I don't personally feel that an entire season is needed for the Nirnaeth. On the other hand, it would feel weird to tack it onto the end of the Beren and Luthien season, or the beginning of the Turin/Tuor season(s).

In my original personal outline, I did 8 episode seasons, and had a half-season that covered the Nirnaeth in four episodes. That's probably not an option here.

There's really not a lot that isn't connected to the B&L story that is recorded about what happens outside the story. Mostly just Nargothrond-related stuff. So I think Season six will be mostly Beren and Luthien related, outside of some villain stuff, and just some stuff catching up with various characters.

Most of Turin's childhood occurs after B&L story, I believe. Lalaith's death, which is at a fairly early age for Turin, is three years after the B&L quest. Turin is only two when the quest is finished, and Tuor isn't born until afterwards.

So, I see Season 6 focusing almost exclusively on B&L, including the Nargothrond/Orodreth/Celegorm&Curufin stuff.

Season 7 could go several directions. We could try to get a 13 episode season out of the Nirnaeth, but I feel that would be stretching it out a lot. Or, we could take the first half of the season to show the leadup and Nirnaeth, which wouldn't be as bad. Every season has had that "turning point" at episode 7, and ending the Nirnaeth could be a good way to go there, and use the second half to set up seasons 8/9, with Turin's childhood, Tuor's enslavement by the easterlings, etc.

Season 8, I would begin or pick up with Turin in/leaving for Doriath, follow both Tuor and Turin's stories concurrently. I would continue those storylines to the point where Turin arrives in Brethil and Tuor arrives in Gondolin.

In Season 9, I'd follow both these stories until Turin's comes to its tragic end, and then follow Tuor until the fall of Gondolin at the end of the season. The Ruin of Doriath would also be interspersed with the Gondolin story once Turin's ends.

As for Earendil, I would probably split that season with the "turning point" of Earendil arriving in Valinor. Spend the first half establishing all the refugees in the Bay, the third kinslaying, getting Elwing and Earendil together, Tuor leaving, etc. And the last half focusing on the War of Wrath itself.

I know this is just some touching points, and a lot of smaller minutiae is left hanging, I just wanted to get some broader strokes down while I was thinking about them.
 

kanji_d

New Member
I'm new here and I know this is an old thread but I thought I'd give my two cents from a new listener's perspective.

I agree that a whole season for the Nirnaeth seems pretty excessive. What is there, even? How long is the Nirnaeth chapter? Most of that is the actual battle, and there's pretty little setup, just the narrator saying "and now Maedhros was given hope by the quest of the Silmaril and began planning", then a description of the Union of Maedhros and the battle plan. And that's about it. I think Octoburn's four episodes is about as far as we can stretch it: two for the setup and two for the battle.

If I were to personally do this all myself I'd have two episodes for the Nirnaeth (which now seems way too few, to be fair) as a prologue to the Turin story. Perhaps, Turin's childhood, Nirnaeth from the perspective of Hurin, then continuing with the rest of the Turin story. But, if we're resigned to a full season on the Nirnaeth setup, then c'est la vie.

The discussion about the Turin-Tuor overlap is interesting, because though they do overlap, Tuor is most certainly earlier in his story than Turin is when they cross paths. As such I think it makes sense to treat the stories separately and to put the Tuor story later. Turin I think ought to be told alone, and end with an episode on the Wanderings of Hurin, instead of using that as a prologue to the Ruin of Doriath.

Which gets me to the Tuor story, because though I think we could bring the Fall of Gondolin to a full season, due to Tolkien's tragic non-completion of the 1950s version, we have very little to work on. I think it's probably best to try for half a season and combine it with the Ruin of Doriath. In fact I think this is better than combining the Turin and Tuor stories, because Gondolin and Doriath both set up the Earendil story, whereas Turin sets up Doriath.

Earendil I agree should be split with the War of Wrath, because, like the Nirnaeth, there's not a lot you can do to bring the War of Wrath to a full season. If we want to dedicate a good chunk of the season to Earendil I could see a 9-4 episode split where Episode 9 has his arrival in Valinor and Episodes 10-13 be about the War of Wrath.

So, as an outline for how I'd do this without other interference:
Season 6 - Beren and Luthien
Season 7 - Turin with Nirnaeth prologue and ending in the Wanderings of Hurin
Season 8 - The Fall and Ruin of Gondolin and Doriath, respectively
Season 9 - Earendil and the War of Wrath
And then onto the Second Age, which is a whole other beast to tackle when we get closer to it.

I also wanted to comment on the ideas about other plots during Season 6, because similarly, there's not much else we know happens. I think it makes the most sense to have A-plots following the Beren and Luthien story, B-plots in Nargothrond, and C-plots only as necessary for the stuff we really need to set up before the Nirnaeth.
 
I'm new here and I know this is an old thread but I thought I'd give my two cents from a new listener's perspective.

I agree that a whole season for the Nirnaeth seems pretty excessive. What is there, even? How long is the Nirnaeth chapter? Most of that is the actual battle, and there's pretty little setup, just the narrator saying "and now Maedhros was given hope by the quest of the Silmaril and began planning", then a description of the Union of Maedhros and the battle plan. And that's about it. I think Octoburn's four episodes is about as far as we can stretch it: two for the setup and two for the battle.

If I were to personally do this all myself I'd have two episodes for the Nirnaeth (which now seems way too few, to be fair) as a prologue to the Turin story. Perhaps, Turin's childhood, Nirnaeth from the perspective of Hurin, then continuing with the rest of the Turin story. But, if we're resigned to a full season on the Nirnaeth setup, then c'est la vie.

The discussion about the Turin-Tuor overlap is interesting, because though they do overlap, Tuor is most certainly earlier in his story than Turin is when they cross paths. As such I think it makes sense to treat the stories separately and to put the Tuor story later. Turin I think ought to be told alone, and end with an episode on the Wanderings of Hurin, instead of using that as a prologue to the Ruin of Doriath.

Which gets me to the Tuor story, because though I think we could bring the Fall of Gondolin to a full season, due to Tolkien's tragic non-completion of the 1950s version, we have very little to work on. I think it's probably best to try for half a season and combine it with the Ruin of Doriath. In fact I think this is better than combining the Turin and Tuor stories, because Gondolin and Doriath both set up the Earendil story, whereas Turin sets up Doriath.

Earendil I agree should be split with the War of Wrath, because, like the Nirnaeth, there's not a lot you can do to bring the War of Wrath to a full season. If we want to dedicate a good chunk of the season to Earendil I could see a 9-4 episode split where Episode 9 has his arrival in Valinor and Episodes 10-13 be about the War of Wrath.

So, as an outline for how I'd do this without other interference:
Season 6 - Beren and Luthien
Season 7 - Turin with Nirnaeth prologue and ending in the Wanderings of Hurin
Season 8 - The Fall and Ruin of Gondolin and Doriath, respectively
Season 9 - Earendil and the War of Wrath
And then onto the Second Age, which is a whole other beast to tackle when we get closer to it.

I also wanted to comment on the ideas about other plots during Season 6, because similarly, there's not much else we know happens. I think it makes the most sense to have A-plots following the Beren and Luthien story, B-plots in Nargothrond, and C-plots only as necessary for the stuff we really need to set up before the Nirnaeth.
The reason why I think the Nirnaeth will be a whole season is that there will be a need to set up the Easterlings entry and Bor and Ulfang as characters as well as Hurin and Huor characters. On the Elves side there will be tensions with trying to get Doriath to commit, given tensions with the sons of Feanor. The childhood of Turin will be in this season as well. We could also spend a bit of time in Gondolin after Hurin and Huor depart with the lead up to Turgon marching out, and continue development of Maeglin and Idril ahead of the Gondolin story proper.

and there may be more bad guys stuff. I can imagine Glaurung replacing Sauron as Gothmogs main antagonist, for example.

and a frame story…so you can see how a season can be built where it starts with great optimism and plausible victory, wth the high point of the House of Hador and alliances between Elves and Men in general - before it all turning to excrement.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The reason why I think the Nirnaeth will be a whole season is that there will be a need to set up the Easterlings entry and Bor and Ulfang as characters as well as Hurin and Huor characters. On the Elves side there will be tensions with trying to get Doriath to commit, given tensions with the sons of Feanor. The childhood of Turin will be in this season as well. We could also spend a bit of time in Gondolin after Hurin and Huor depart with the lead up to Turgon marching out, and continue development of Maeglin and Idril ahead of the Gondolin story proper.

and there may be more bad guys stuff. I can imagine Glaurung replacing Sauron as Gothmogs main antagonist, for example.

and a frame story…so you can see how a season can be built where it starts with great optimism and plausible victory, wth the high point of the House of Hador and alliances between Elves and Men in general - before it all turning to excrement.
Yeah, there's quite a lot of story to cover just with Hurin and Huor and there needs to be some way of establishing Maeglin's desire for Idril rather than dumping it into the Fall of Gondolin story.

For a Nirnaeth frame story, I've suggested the last meeting of the White Council (c. 2953 T.A.), the one where they debate the Rings and Saruman lies by saying that the Ring passed down Anduin to the sea. It would be a nice contrast to the action of the Nirnaeth and establish that Saruman is already starting to break away from the rest of the White Council; at this point he fortifies Isengard and sets a watch on the Shire.
 

kanji_d

New Member
Yeah, there's quite a lot of story to cover just with Hurin and Huor and there needs to be some way of establishing Maeglin's desire for Idril rather than dumping it into the Fall of Gondolin story.
That's a good point, I'd forgotten we've not done anything with Hurin and Huor yet. Especially since he's going to be captured I think having Hurin as an overall protagonist for that season would be a very good idea.

For a Nirnaeth frame story, I've suggested the last meeting of the White Council (c. 2953 T.A.), the one where they debate the Rings and Saruman lies by saying that the Ring passed down Anduin to the sea. It would be a nice contrast to the action of the Nirnaeth and establish that Saruman is already starting to break away from the rest of the White Council; at this point he fortifies Isengard and sets a watch on the Shire.
I quite like that idea! Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the one of which Gandalf says he regrets still trusting Saruman? So it would in a way also be a tragedy like the Nirnaeth. One of my primary complaints about the frames is that four out of six (by the Turin season five out of eight) play into the Aragorn/Arwen story. Not a bad story on its own but I worry it'll become a little oversaturated. I'm glad to have a good amount of variation, and I like how it also ties into the larger story.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Welcome! Glad you've found the Silm Film project :)

I think having Hurin as an overall protagonist for that season would be a very good idea.
Yes, agreed! Rather than calling it 'the Nirnaeth Season', we should call it the 'Húrin and Huor season'. I think that would explain what the overall arc is, and make sense of why we'll be starting with Húrin and Huor in Gondolin, and open up that subplot as well - after all, Turgon's decision to march out with an army 10,000 strong can't come out of nowhere. We will need to set that up, even if it is a surprise/unlooked for in some ways. Hopefully we'll find a way to introduce the idea of Galdor's missing sons in Season 6, to set that up.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Welcome! Glad you've found the Silm Film project :)



Yes, agreed! Rather than calling it 'the Nirnaeth Season', we should call it the 'Húrin and Huor season'. I think that would explain what the overall arc is, and make sense of why we'll be starting with Húrin and Huor in Gondolin, and open up that subplot as well - after all, Turgon's decision to march out with an army 10,000 strong can't come out of nowhere. We will need to set that up, even if it is a surprise/unlooked for in some ways. Hopefully we'll find a way to introduce the idea of Galdor's missing sons in Season 6, to set that up.
In Season 5, did we mention that Hurin and Huor are fostering in Brethil? The idea can also be setup by showing the attack on the Forest of Brethil which was relieved by the Sindarin, which is where Hurin and Huor were MIA. Could also throw in the arrival of Emeldir's refugees.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The audience has been informed that Galdor has sons, but has not really met them yet. So, their going missing can coincide with the attack on Minas Tirith, which is an early Season 6 event.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well anyway i am looking forward on how the writers solve the problem.So far Beren and Luthien is next... with or without the Nirnaeth... one of the two next seasons it will happen.

And after the war of wrath i'd like a single document with all seasons/scripts.It is such a decisive event...almost like the end of first half of silmfilm.I'd really love to read it all again then in one piece.
 
I think that really speaks to season 6 bring in someways a soft reboot. Or rather a good jumping on point. If Beren and Luthien are in fact the main focus, that’s quite a nice place to zag into a personal intimate story (that will explode into bigger implications). But I think it really does feel like season 6 starts a new chapter
 
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