So, after the recent discussion about Gandalf and Denethor, my question is: are we to assume that Denethor does not know about Isildur's scroll? How plausible is that, I'm wondering? And why would Saruman have just left it there, after finding it, given his character? I find this puzzling.
Denethor'sKnowledge
- Thread starter mjnairn
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amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Depending on the size of the library, it could be very plausible that Denethor hasn't read everything within. Especially dusty old scrolls from the days when there were still kings.
And Saruman hasn't always been a bag egg - he has been on a gradual decline for a long time, but he didn't start where he ended up.
And Saruman hasn't always been a bag egg - he has been on a gradual decline for a long time, but he didn't start where he ended up.
JJ48
Well-Known Member
Concerning Denethor, is there any reason to think he doesn't know about the scroll? Denethor may well know if its existence and be either unable or unwilling to read it. As Gandalf points out, languages change, and Denethor's a busy man with more pressing concerns.
As for Saruman, depending on the size of the scroll, it may be very difficult to smuggle it out or destroy it without being noticed, especially since we don't even know if he was Falling at the time he read it. And even if he was turning to evil, I'd like to imagine that there was still enough good in him at the time to not steal or damage a library book.
As for Saruman, depending on the size of the scroll, it may be very difficult to smuggle it out or destroy it without being noticed, especially since we don't even know if he was Falling at the time he read it. And even if he was turning to evil, I'd like to imagine that there was still enough good in him at the time to not steal or damage a library book.
Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Hi mjnairn,
Excellent questions.
On the first question, Gandalf assumes (or implies) that Denethor does not know of Isildur's scroll. He says, "There lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess by any save Saruman and myself, since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself." However, this is a 'guess' by Gandalf. There is no real evidence that Denethor has not also read this scroll. If he had read it, it might have been only of passing curiosity to him, as he had no reason to be interested in details about Sauron's Ring.
On the second question, the simplest explanation is that Saruman read this scroll at some point before he 'fell' into lust for the Ring and treachery. At this point, there would have been nothing shady about Saruman's character, and it would not have occurred to him to pilfer a scroll from the archives of Gondor.
According to (the somewhat confusing and possibly contradictory) accounts in Appendix B, Saruman's treachery dates from either 2953, the last meeting of the White Council, where he 'feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea', or from 3000, when Saruman "dares to use the Palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron... He becomes a traitor to the council." In either case, he must have read the scroll sometime before the last White Council in order to be able to refer there to markings on the Ring. It could possibly have been a long time before. So, I think that Saruman read the scroll in Minas Tirith before he had turned traitor, and back in the days when his character was more benign.
An interesting follow on question is: Why does Gandalf seem to recount a 'gotcha' on Denethor? "Denethor said I would find naught that he did not already know, but he was wrong. I found a scroll that only Saruman and myself have read in more than 1,000 years!"? Gandalf has no way of knowing that Denethor has not read this scroll. Why is Gandalf portraying Denethor in a somewhat unfavorable light, with Denethor's son in the room?
I find this odd. I also guess that Boromir would find it irritating and off-putting.
Excellent questions.
On the first question, Gandalf assumes (or implies) that Denethor does not know of Isildur's scroll. He says, "There lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess by any save Saruman and myself, since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself." However, this is a 'guess' by Gandalf. There is no real evidence that Denethor has not also read this scroll. If he had read it, it might have been only of passing curiosity to him, as he had no reason to be interested in details about Sauron's Ring.
On the second question, the simplest explanation is that Saruman read this scroll at some point before he 'fell' into lust for the Ring and treachery. At this point, there would have been nothing shady about Saruman's character, and it would not have occurred to him to pilfer a scroll from the archives of Gondor.
According to (the somewhat confusing and possibly contradictory) accounts in Appendix B, Saruman's treachery dates from either 2953, the last meeting of the White Council, where he 'feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea', or from 3000, when Saruman "dares to use the Palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron... He becomes a traitor to the council." In either case, he must have read the scroll sometime before the last White Council in order to be able to refer there to markings on the Ring. It could possibly have been a long time before. So, I think that Saruman read the scroll in Minas Tirith before he had turned traitor, and back in the days when his character was more benign.
An interesting follow on question is: Why does Gandalf seem to recount a 'gotcha' on Denethor? "Denethor said I would find naught that he did not already know, but he was wrong. I found a scroll that only Saruman and myself have read in more than 1,000 years!"? Gandalf has no way of knowing that Denethor has not read this scroll. Why is Gandalf portraying Denethor in a somewhat unfavorable light, with Denethor's son in the room?
I find this odd. I also guess that Boromir would find it irritating and off-putting.
Tony Meade
Active Member
I always lean toward Denethor and other modern Gondorians ignoring primary source texts going back to the end of the Second Age, for the simple reason of language. The languages of the modern Gondorians seem to focus on Common Speech (Westron) and their peculiar dialect of Sindarin. This was not the case at the transition point between the Second and Third Ages, when Isildur was still alive and ruling as High King.
At that time, the primary languages of the Numenorean realms, Arnor and Gondor, would have been Adunaic as the language of High Men, Sindarin in discourse with the Elves, and probably Quenya as a language of lore. Those languages would be largely forgotten by most people by the end of the Third Age, much like languages like Vulgate Latin, Classical Greek, Norman French, and Anglo-Saxon would have been used widely 900-1000 years ago in England, but are largely forgotten by modern English people outside of specialist professions, like historians and the Church.
Being an historical linguist and philologist, I have no doubt that this kind of loss of knowledge of ancient tongues among Men would be expected by Tolkien, and accounted for in the general loss of that lore among the mortal races. I highly doubt Denethor could read those ancient documents, and if he did, it would probably be in a "modern" translation, and then only those documents he might think relevant to his current situation. Gandalf, however, would be able to read all those old languages, and as in many other cases, would see the value in them where others might not.
Of course, this is all speculation, but that's nothing new in our world.
At that time, the primary languages of the Numenorean realms, Arnor and Gondor, would have been Adunaic as the language of High Men, Sindarin in discourse with the Elves, and probably Quenya as a language of lore. Those languages would be largely forgotten by most people by the end of the Third Age, much like languages like Vulgate Latin, Classical Greek, Norman French, and Anglo-Saxon would have been used widely 900-1000 years ago in England, but are largely forgotten by modern English people outside of specialist professions, like historians and the Church.
Being an historical linguist and philologist, I have no doubt that this kind of loss of knowledge of ancient tongues among Men would be expected by Tolkien, and accounted for in the general loss of that lore among the mortal races. I highly doubt Denethor could read those ancient documents, and if he did, it would probably be in a "modern" translation, and then only those documents he might think relevant to his current situation. Gandalf, however, would be able to read all those old languages, and as in many other cases, would see the value in them where others might not.
Of course, this is all speculation, but that's nothing new in our world.
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Tony Meade
Active Member
He does. The quote is "And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few even of the lore-masters now can read, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men." I was just expounding on that notion, especially Denethor personally, who may be overestimating his lore.
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
Denethor is probably extremely rich in lore starting from the time of the Stewards, moderately rich in lore from the era of kings, and low in lore of Numenorean times.
Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Why are many assuming that Denethor has not read the scroll? He claims that there is "naught (in the Archives) that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this city." There is nothing to suggest that this statement is not correct, except Gandalf's 'guess' that only he and Saruman have read the scroll since the days of the kings. That is only a guess.
Faramir will say to Frodo, "We in the house of Denethor know much ancient lore by long tradition, and there are moreover in our treasuries many things preserved.... Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them. I can read a little in them, for I have had teaching." Faramir also says that he has "learned or guessed, and I have kept it ever secret in my heart since: that Isildur took somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed." Well, if Faramir learned this, I suspect he learned it from Denethor. If he guessed it, I guess he guessed it from some cryptic comment by Denethor. The most likely source for Denethor to have learned this would be by reading the same scroll which Gandalf later read. As for Denethor not being able to read the scroll due to the language having changed. Faramir can read them (at least 'a little') and I guess that Denethor can read Quenya and Adunaic well.
There is no reason for it to become apparent to Gandalf whether Denethor had read the scroll or not. Gandalf was not asking Denethor to point him towards specific information before he dived into the archives. Gandalf, I assume, was not discussing his find with Denethor after reading the scroll. How would Gandalf have known whether Denethor had read the scroll or not? I assume Denethor was correct. There was naught in the Archives that was not well known to him, and that included this scroll of Isildur's.
Faramir will say to Frodo, "We in the house of Denethor know much ancient lore by long tradition, and there are moreover in our treasuries many things preserved.... Some none can now read; and for the rest, few ever unlock them. I can read a little in them, for I have had teaching." Faramir also says that he has "learned or guessed, and I have kept it ever secret in my heart since: that Isildur took somewhat from the hand of the Unnamed." Well, if Faramir learned this, I suspect he learned it from Denethor. If he guessed it, I guess he guessed it from some cryptic comment by Denethor. The most likely source for Denethor to have learned this would be by reading the same scroll which Gandalf later read. As for Denethor not being able to read the scroll due to the language having changed. Faramir can read them (at least 'a little') and I guess that Denethor can read Quenya and Adunaic well.
There is no reason for it to become apparent to Gandalf whether Denethor had read the scroll or not. Gandalf was not asking Denethor to point him towards specific information before he dived into the archives. Gandalf, I assume, was not discussing his find with Denethor after reading the scroll. How would Gandalf have known whether Denethor had read the scroll or not? I assume Denethor was correct. There was naught in the Archives that was not well known to him, and that included this scroll of Isildur's.
Anthony Lawther
Well-Known Member
I'll add some emphasis to support a different interpretation:
We haven't gotten there yet, but this snippet of exchange should be considered when we think about where Faramir learned to read the old texts:
This suggests to me that Faramir's grasp of the ancient languages came from Gandalf, while Denethor's contribution was more in the form of stories told father to son down the generations.
As has been shown countless times, verbal histories are more subject to change and re-interpretation than written histories, and they tend to carry forward only the elements that each generation finds important. How many people these days know or care about the significance of the Grand Old Duke of York with his ten thousand men and their position on the landscape? Or Old King Cole? The songs and stories haven't been lost yet, but many of the meanings associated with them have, and new ones added. Where is it ever stated that Humpty Dumpty is an egg?
So, I'm left with the conclusion that Denethor's claim should be read as "naught (in the Archives, that I know anyone else can read) that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this city." It may have been "on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.” or perhaps just a corner of the library, so covered in dust that it had obviously not been disturbed for a few centuries.
We haven't gotten there yet, but this snippet of exchange should be considered when we think about where Faramir learned to read the old texts:
emphasis added.
This suggests to me that Faramir's grasp of the ancient languages came from Gandalf, while Denethor's contribution was more in the form of stories told father to son down the generations.
As has been shown countless times, verbal histories are more subject to change and re-interpretation than written histories, and they tend to carry forward only the elements that each generation finds important. How many people these days know or care about the significance of the Grand Old Duke of York with his ten thousand men and their position on the landscape? Or Old King Cole? The songs and stories haven't been lost yet, but many of the meanings associated with them have, and new ones added. Where is it ever stated that Humpty Dumpty is an egg?
So, I'm left with the conclusion that Denethor's claim should be read as "naught (in the Archives, that I know anyone else can read) that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this city." It may have been "on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.” or perhaps just a corner of the library, so covered in dust that it had obviously not been disturbed for a few centuries.
Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Hi Anthony,
That's certainly a possible reading. But, it just does not seem as straight forward as the alternative. However, I guess my real question is, why do many people 'want' to read this as 'Denethor is boasting and Gandalf discovers something he did not know about'? My suggestion is that we are prompted to this prejudice by the way that Gandalf presents the story. Saruman, who created the impression by, 'it was rolled down the river to the Sea', that the Valar had taken care of the Ring, is not the only Wizard who can cleverly slant a story. All Gandalf says is, "Unread by any, I guess, save Saruman and myself" and many readers infer, "Denethor was wrong (and arrogant). He did not know about everything in his archives."
There is actually absolutely no evidence that Denethor was wrong. The simplest reading is that Denethor was correct, and that he had read the scroll. In which case Gandalf's 'guess' was simply incorrect. (There is no way that Gandalf can know whether Denethor has read the scroll or not.) However, the way Gandalf tells the story (while never saying that Denethor was wrong) leads to the impression that Denethor was caught out.
I think the real puzzle here is not whether Denethor was incorrect (no reason to suppose so, though certainly possible) but, why does Gandalf slant the story to create this impression?
I think that Gandalf is definitely slanting this story. If he really knew that Denethor had never read this scroll (and wanted to highlight this for some reason), Gandalf would have simply omitted the "I guess" from his sentence. That 'I guess' is covering his ass, and avoiding telling a lie (which Good Wizards should always avoid). "I guess", is a dead give away that Gandalf is telling this story in a way that is designed to cast Denethor unfavorably, albeit in a subtle way.
So, why is Gandalf slanting his story to cast shade on Denethor? Especially when Boromir is sitting right there? Corey suggested that Gandalf was perhaps trying to give members of the Council a subtle warning that Denethor felt shady and caution should be exercised. But, why add to the growing collection of Council incidents which risk alienating rather than allying Boromir, when Gandalf could have given that caution to individual Council members after the Council and in private? (It will be months, after all, before the quest sets off from Rivendell.) Denethor never comes up again as a subject of discussion during the Council, so there is really no need to urgently signal caution to Council members.
One possible explanation is that this is not so much a Gandalf slant, as a JRRT slant. An occurrence of his oft practiced delight in 'foreshadowing'. In which case, the 'slant' would be aimed more at the first-time reader, than at the Council members. However, if this is what is going on, it still leads to Gandalf's slanting of the story seeming puzzling when looked at from the perspective of Gandalf, the perspective of Boromir, and the perspective of the Council.
That's certainly a possible reading. But, it just does not seem as straight forward as the alternative. However, I guess my real question is, why do many people 'want' to read this as 'Denethor is boasting and Gandalf discovers something he did not know about'? My suggestion is that we are prompted to this prejudice by the way that Gandalf presents the story. Saruman, who created the impression by, 'it was rolled down the river to the Sea', that the Valar had taken care of the Ring, is not the only Wizard who can cleverly slant a story. All Gandalf says is, "Unread by any, I guess, save Saruman and myself" and many readers infer, "Denethor was wrong (and arrogant). He did not know about everything in his archives."
There is actually absolutely no evidence that Denethor was wrong. The simplest reading is that Denethor was correct, and that he had read the scroll. In which case Gandalf's 'guess' was simply incorrect. (There is no way that Gandalf can know whether Denethor has read the scroll or not.) However, the way Gandalf tells the story (while never saying that Denethor was wrong) leads to the impression that Denethor was caught out.
I think the real puzzle here is not whether Denethor was incorrect (no reason to suppose so, though certainly possible) but, why does Gandalf slant the story to create this impression?
I think that Gandalf is definitely slanting this story. If he really knew that Denethor had never read this scroll (and wanted to highlight this for some reason), Gandalf would have simply omitted the "I guess" from his sentence. That 'I guess' is covering his ass, and avoiding telling a lie (which Good Wizards should always avoid). "I guess", is a dead give away that Gandalf is telling this story in a way that is designed to cast Denethor unfavorably, albeit in a subtle way.
So, why is Gandalf slanting his story to cast shade on Denethor? Especially when Boromir is sitting right there? Corey suggested that Gandalf was perhaps trying to give members of the Council a subtle warning that Denethor felt shady and caution should be exercised. But, why add to the growing collection of Council incidents which risk alienating rather than allying Boromir, when Gandalf could have given that caution to individual Council members after the Council and in private? (It will be months, after all, before the quest sets off from Rivendell.) Denethor never comes up again as a subject of discussion during the Council, so there is really no need to urgently signal caution to Council members.
One possible explanation is that this is not so much a Gandalf slant, as a JRRT slant. An occurrence of his oft practiced delight in 'foreshadowing'. In which case, the 'slant' would be aimed more at the first-time reader, than at the Council members. However, if this is what is going on, it still leads to Gandalf's slanting of the story seeming puzzling when looked at from the perspective of Gandalf, the perspective of Boromir, and the perspective of the Council.
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amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
"I guess" is still a lie if you don't actually think it to be true.
If Gandalf knows what language the scroll is written in--and he does--and he knows what languages Denethor can read--as seems likely--then he can easily surmise whether Denethor could have read the scroll. This seems to me to be the reason Gandalf gives, as mentioned by Tony Meade above.
Sure, he could be lying, or wrong. But the simplest reading is that he isn't.
Sure, he could be lying, or wrong. But the simplest reading is that he isn't.
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NancyL
Member
<Signaling a turn> There were two interpretations of Denethor's attitude toward Gandalf discussed during the session: snarky/prideful or focused on the future fight with Sauron . I think there is some evidence for a third (or perhaps a blending of the two): Denethor is sliding rapidly toward despair. He's getting convinced that Sauron is going to win and he's already flirting mentally with his preferred method of death. Anger and Fear are, we are told, part of the path to acceptance of death.
Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Sure there are many ways to read the text and think it supports Denethor not having read the scroll. But they are all a stretch.
Occam's razor should be applied. Denethor says there is nothing in the archives that is not well known to him. Gandalf says that he 'guesses' that no one except him and Saruman has read the scroll. Denethor makes a definite statement. He has no reason to lie to Gandalf. Anyway, we never get any evidence that Denethor is ever a liar. 'Too proud to lie' might well describe him. Gandalf, on the other hand, does not make a definite statement. He makes a guess. Guesses can easily be wrong.
The obvious and simplest assumption is that Denethor is correct, and that Gandalf's guess is wrong. You would need to have some good reason to have a different interpretation. There is no good reason. Why on earth would Denethor lie about this? He has no motive nor rationale. No, it is prejudice (set up by Gandalf's tale) that makes people look for dubious reasons to doubt Denethor. (Plus, of course, later knowledge about Denethor, unavailable to the first-time reader.)
Occam's razor should be applied. Denethor says there is nothing in the archives that is not well known to him. Gandalf says that he 'guesses' that no one except him and Saruman has read the scroll. Denethor makes a definite statement. He has no reason to lie to Gandalf. Anyway, we never get any evidence that Denethor is ever a liar. 'Too proud to lie' might well describe him. Gandalf, on the other hand, does not make a definite statement. He makes a guess. Guesses can easily be wrong.
The obvious and simplest assumption is that Denethor is correct, and that Gandalf's guess is wrong. You would need to have some good reason to have a different interpretation. There is no good reason. Why on earth would Denethor lie about this? He has no motive nor rationale. No, it is prejudice (set up by Gandalf's tale) that makes people look for dubious reasons to doubt Denethor. (Plus, of course, later knowledge about Denethor, unavailable to the first-time reader.)
amysrevenge
Well-Known Member
I mean, if we are going first time reader here, currently as of the Council, we have no reason to suspect that Gandalf's guess might be wrong. He's a pretty clever guy, makes some pretty good guesses. Seems like the sort to not say anything at all, if he wasn't fairly certain.
If it's obvious, I think we must account for the fact that most people conclude the opposite.
Is it really simplest to assume a Steward--who is rather busy--reads an ancient language very, very few mortals do, and has thus applied himself to the entire archive of his ancient city? Is it simplest to assume a wizard who educated his son would know nothing of this Steward's linguistic or scholarly capacity? I think those assumptions strain credulity.
Furthermore, as amysrevenge notes, Gandalf is a trusted protagonist to a first-time reader. There is no reason to distrust him. Said reader has also just seen the limits of Boromir's lore-wisdom, and is thus disposed to think of his Father similarly. And a repeat reader, of course, is biased against Denethor.
Regarding how they speak, I don't think it true that emphatic statements are necessarily more trustworthy than hedged ones. It may be simpler to believe someone who says they are sure than someone who doesn't, but it often isn't wise.
I think the simplest conclusion is that Denethor is utilizing hyperbole. He is (over-)projecting strength and competency, because he is a threatened politician who seeks when confronted to emphasize and consolidate his own power/authority. To quote Tolkien's letters, he has "become tainted with mere politics." And there is nothing we associate with "mere politics" so much as stretching the truth to make one's self seem more competent.
Finally, I think we need to consider what Tolkien accomplishes if Gandalf is correct and telling the truth. Namely, it establishes that a crucial piece of information is known to only one other person. Further, it hints that Denethor will become something of an antagonist. This works with the story as it develops.
What does Tolkien accomplish if Gandalf is wrong or lying, however? And why would he want to accomplish it?
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Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Hi Beech, The reason that most people conclude the opposite is that Gandalf sets up the story to induce them to conclude the opposite.
I really don't see how the simplest conclusion is that Denethor is using hyperbole. He is not a politician. He is not threatened (well, he is by Sauron, but not by Gandalf). And, even if he was, we would know nothing about it at this time. All we know about Denethor is that he was loth to let Boromir go on the quest, that he had some vague knowledge about Imladris, and that he was wise in the lore of Gondor. Other than that, the only things we know about Denethor come from what Gandalf is saying.
As for the notion that the scroll is written in some obscure language that Denethor does not know. This is a long stretch. First, we have no evidence that the scroll is written in an obscure language. We have no knowledge of what languages Denethor speaks. Even if we make the stretchy assumption that Gandalf knows that the scroll is in a language that he knows Denethor does not speak, this proves nothing. Denethor, as Steward of Gondor, undoubtedly has translators available who could parse any language that Isildur could write.
The fact that the first time reader often does suspect Denethor of over-boasting about his knowledge does not come from prejudice set up by later knowledge, but by prejudice set up by the way that Gandalf slants the story.
Anyway, whether Denethor was or was not aware of the scroll is not the main issue. The main issue is: Why does Gandalf even tell this story? It seems a very undiplomatic story to tell. Also un-necessary in any scenario I can think of. Gandalf is going out of his way to cast shade on Denethor. Why?
I really don't see how the simplest conclusion is that Denethor is using hyperbole. He is not a politician. He is not threatened (well, he is by Sauron, but not by Gandalf). And, even if he was, we would know nothing about it at this time. All we know about Denethor is that he was loth to let Boromir go on the quest, that he had some vague knowledge about Imladris, and that he was wise in the lore of Gondor. Other than that, the only things we know about Denethor come from what Gandalf is saying.
As for the notion that the scroll is written in some obscure language that Denethor does not know. This is a long stretch. First, we have no evidence that the scroll is written in an obscure language. We have no knowledge of what languages Denethor speaks. Even if we make the stretchy assumption that Gandalf knows that the scroll is in a language that he knows Denethor does not speak, this proves nothing. Denethor, as Steward of Gondor, undoubtedly has translators available who could parse any language that Isildur could write.
The fact that the first time reader often does suspect Denethor of over-boasting about his knowledge does not come from prejudice set up by later knowledge, but by prejudice set up by the way that Gandalf slants the story.
Anyway, whether Denethor was or was not aware of the scroll is not the main issue. The main issue is: Why does Gandalf even tell this story? It seems a very undiplomatic story to tell. Also un-necessary in any scenario I can think of. Gandalf is going out of his way to cast shade on Denethor. Why?
I know you don't like to consider materials from outside the text overmuch, but I'd quote Letter 183 again: "He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest." Whether he is a politician, Tolkien says Denethor was that kind of leader. The context is that Tolkien says Denethor resents Aragorn, not because he's unfit, but for the opposite reason--that he's so fit as to displace him. Denethor resents anyone who is greater than he, which Gandalf certainly is.
This is not a stretch at all. In fact, the text is rather explicit on the point.
"And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men. And... there lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess, by any save Saruman and myself since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself."
The implication, here, is clearly that the scroll is in a tongue that has become "dark to later men". So dark, perhaps, that no one could translate it for Denethor, or had ever done so if they could.
Because it's important to establish whether anyone else has this knowledge. He suspects Saruman is the only other person who does. Saruman's ring-lore is of present concern, and will grow in importance. Tolkien uses this moment to suggest Denethor as an antagonist, and one who doesn't much like or listen to Gandalf. Gandalf further establishes the limits of the line of Stewards' lore. Maybe that's not terribly polite, but it's important. They have dinged Boromir on that point several times already. You have to be honest about your allies, and to them.
A reading wherein Gandalf is either wrong or dishonest makes less sense, and I can't say what Tolkien would seek to accomplish with it. That's part of the reason I don't think it's correct.
This is not a stretch at all. In fact, the text is rather explicit on the point.
"And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men. And... there lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess, by any save Saruman and myself since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself."
The implication, here, is clearly that the scroll is in a tongue that has become "dark to later men". So dark, perhaps, that no one could translate it for Denethor, or had ever done so if they could.
Because it's important to establish whether anyone else has this knowledge. He suspects Saruman is the only other person who does. Saruman's ring-lore is of present concern, and will grow in importance. Tolkien uses this moment to suggest Denethor as an antagonist, and one who doesn't much like or listen to Gandalf. Gandalf further establishes the limits of the line of Stewards' lore. Maybe that's not terribly polite, but it's important. They have dinged Boromir on that point several times already. You have to be honest about your allies, and to them.
A reading wherein Gandalf is either wrong or dishonest makes less sense, and I can't say what Tolkien would seek to accomplish with it. That's part of the reason I don't think it's correct.
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Flammifer
Well-Known Member
As first-time readers, we have no 'reason' to suspect that Denethor's declaration that he 'knows well' everything in the archive might be wrong. This is a statement of fact. Gandalf's is not. It is a statement of conjecture. "I guess."
It is true, that the first-time reader is apt to preference Gandalf's guess over Denethor's fact. You are correct, that this is partly because the reader has come to trust Gandalf, but mostly because Gandalf slants the story to induce this prejudice. He starts with, "So, said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men." Cunning, Gandalf! You are implying that the scroll was in an ancient script or language that Denethor could not have read. We notice, however, that you never say so! I suspect that although there may be records in the archives in obscure scripts, the scroll was not one of them. Isildur says in the scroll, "records of it (the Ring) shall be left in Gondor,... lest a time come when the memory of these great matters shall grow dim". Isildur intends this record to be read by later generations. He is not likely to be writing it in some coded script. And any normal language spoken by Isildur would be perfectly comprehensible to Denethor or his scholars and translators.
I like your comment that Gandalf seems like the sort to not say anything at all if he wasn't fairly certain. (Or at least if he did not have some purpose in mind.) Why does Gandalf say anything at all? Why is he trying to throw shade on Denethor? It seems very counterproductive and undiplomatic. Likely to become yet another (of a building chain) of incidents in the Council likely to antagonize Boromir, rather than gain him as an ally.
Really, whether or not Gandalf's guess was correct, the whole comment is extremely strange.
One thing seems certain. Honey-tongued Saruman is not the only Wizard who can use language subtly, and get people to infer meanings to his speech which he never actually said.