Doriath

Haakon

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This is the kingdom of Thingol and Melian that is eventually protected by the Girdle of Melian; that means Neldoreth (mainly beech forest), Nivrim (mainly oak forest) and Region (a mixed forest of beech, birch, maples, chestnuts?) not Nan Elmoth or Brethil. Also included is Arthórien/Garthúrian/Radhrim, where the guest-elves settle.
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I’m looking for pictures of a more dense leaf tree forest with tall, broad trees.... I don’t feel I’ve found the perfect Region pics.
 
Region is named for hollies, so there should be many of them. Also there are probably other, less common trees as Haakon mentioned: maple, birch, chestnut, linden.

Finding a real-world forest with the huge trees and healthy ecosystem to properly represent Doriath will be extremely hard, if not impossible. Humans have done their damned hardest to cut down every temperate old-growth forest on Earth. Bialowieza might work? I like the Puzzlewood. Or what does the Black Forest look like?

It's easier for Doriath in Season 2 when the forest is younger, but even then it probably included many trees that had slept the Sleep of Yavanna since the downfall of the Lamps, ancient and huge indeed.
 
One problem is that Doriath doesn’t seem to have any conifers, and many of the older forests do, for example the Schwarzwald. Well, the search continues. No Nick, I think those trees are too young.
 
Ok I've found some pictures of holly that I find pretty inspiring actually. Unknown.jpegimages.jpegUnknown-1.jpeg
Especially these two give some idea of what a forest full of hollies could look like. Not that they show a forest scene, but they are large and you can picture elves living in them...62040.jpg05667.jpg
 
One problem is that Doriath doesn’t seem to have any conifers, and many of the older forests do, for example the Schwarzwald. Well, the search continues.
It's true there's no mention of them, except in the early Lay of the Children of Hurin which isn't necessarily a good guide since the pines got taken out. But it might be supposed there were a few here and there. Still the overall impression is definitely of a broadleaf deciduous forest, not a mixed forest.

An added difficulty is that to be perfectly accurate, the clearings must have elanor and niphredil in them... and maybe evermind ... but I suppose that could be attempted with CGI, if it could be made beautiful.
 
I was thinking of something to create an effect like this:
for forests like Doriath, Ossiriand and other southern ones.

Yakushima Forest Japan:
image
 
Hmmm.

Neldoreth (the birthplace of Lúthien and the first forest of Beleriand we see in Season 3) is a beech forest. Region (the forest surrounding Menegroth) is a holly forest.

Sherwood forest contains oaks and birches (and no doubt other trees, such as elm), but is not famous for either beeches or holly. So, I'd hesitate to associate it with either of those two. On the other hand...Sherwood is certainly a great example of an OLD growth forest, and we want something like that for the quintessential elven woods of Middle-earth.

So...I think that takes us to central Europe. There are some impressive beech trees in Wales, to be fair. But Germany and Slovenia are probably more what we're thinking for old growth beech forest.

Here's a list of the largest/oldest beech trees:
https://www.monumentaltrees.com/en/trees/europeanbeech/records/

German beech forest:
Ancient%20Beech%20tree%20forest.jpg


Jasmund National Park (Germany):
fixedw_large_4x.jpg


39227.jpg


Beech wood in Wales:
CROP-Beech-wood-wales-800x400.jpg


And down under, in New South Wales:
antarctic-beech-forest-nsw-00615.jpg

pixel.gif


English Holly Tree:
Eng_holly001_DPolster.jpg


And for Region, we have: The Réserve Biologique Intégrale de la Sainte-Baume in France. It was the only reference I could find to an old-growth forest that contains Ilex (holly). As a bonus, this forest also has beech and linden, *and* a famous stone grotto. Seems to fit Region rather decently!
Massif_Sainte_Baume-2.jpg


One could ask the question of whether Tolkien meant 'holly' or 'holm oak' when he wrote about Region (and later Eregion) having holly trees. Unless someone has a good argument for holm oak (quercus ilex) I'm going to stick with holly (ilex aquifolium). And, you know, there *is* another old growth forest that contains both (American) beech and American holly (ilex opaca) trees - the New Jersey pine barrens. Let's...not use that one! Rather, we should probably stick to the Forest of Saint Baume in Provence, France.



Don't get me wrong - I love birch trees, and we better have some somewhere on our show! Perhaps one of the more northerly forests, around Hithlum? But I think that Doriath is just too far south for birch, unfortunately.
 
Don't get me wrong - I love birch trees, and we better have some somewhere on our show! Perhaps one of the more northerly forests, around Hithlum? But I think that Doriath is just too far south for birch, unfortunately.
Birch isn't necessarily a northern tree, even if the northern temperate zone is where it's most common. I don't believe it grows in Doriath, but in Nimbrethil. in Arvernien.
 
Right. . .it just needs to be somewhere with harsh enough winters to kill off the bug pests that plague it. You can grow birches much further south if you're willing to spray for bugs.

The forest of Brethil makes sense. After all, that's outside the protection of Doriath, so likely has a slightly harsher climate.
 
I would also like to remind everyone that there is a special thread on Doriath, that includes Region and other regions.
 
Forests of Doriath - a question of climate

Comparing climates across the Atlantic to one another based strictly on latitude ignores the effect of ocean currents and polar air currents, which give Western Europe a much milder climate than the American and Canadian coastal regions of the same latitude. So, for instance, Virginia has a latitude of 36 to 39°N, while the Lorraine region of northern France has a latitude of 47 to 49°N. And, certainly, overall, Virginia has warmer temperatures than Lorraine. But, Virginia has colder winters than Lorraine does. On the graph below, blue is Virginia, and orange is Lorraine.

Screenshot_20230618-085931-955.png

I thought I would get that caveat out of the way before presenting information about the forests in Europe.

As we know, the forest of Neldoreth is predominantly beeches, while the forest of Nivrim is predominantly oaks. The Forest of Region (south of Neldoreth, east of Nivrim) is dominated by holly, which often grows in oak and beech forests as well.

Here is the distribution of holly across Europe:
1687100344461.png

So, Region could be modeled on forests with a diverse range of climates, as long as holly is a dominant species there. The particular forest chosen for Silm Film is in France.

Similarly the beech forests that we want to use for Neldoreth seem to give us some flexibility in climate. Not quite as diverse as the holly, but still growing well through much of Europe, including southern England. We chose some of the old growth beech forests in Germany for Neldoreth.

Range of common European beech (Fagus sylvatica)
1687098068989.png

Nivrim, to the west of Region, is a bit trickier. To be fair, I am not certain which type of oak is meant to be found in Nivrim: cork oak or turkey oak, or even a hybrid between them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lucombe Or even the 'holly oak,' a different tree altogether. But regardless, for all of those we are looking at a tree that enjoys a Mediterranean climate. Oak trees can and do grow in England...but these varieties appear mostly only if you plant them there. There's only really one type of natural oak forest in England (though the climate is changing, so that could change as well).

This is the distribution of cork oak in Europe (Quercus suber):
1687100469797.png

Range of the Turkey/Austrian oak (Quercus cerris)
1687097516899.png

And, for completion sake, the holly oak/holm oak (Quercus ilex):
1687097213034.png

The favored climate of all of the above options is Mediterranean. Luckily, there's another species of oak:

Common oak, European oak, English oak (Quercus robur)
1687101447090.png

So, the places I would be comfortable saying that all three of these forests could grow would be: northern Spain, southern England, France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, or the Adriatic coast. That seems to be a good match for the climate of Doriath's forests. We should probably choose a location for Nivrim around there.
 
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Forests of Doriath - a question of climate

Comparing climates across the Atlantic to one another based strictly on latitude ignores the effect of ocean currents and polar air currents, which give Western Europe a much milder climate than the American and Canadian coastal regions of the same latitude.

Indeed, but:

1. The world is yet flat and future Americas are in the East = so no Gulf Stream yet (Valinor has no Gulf)
2. Doriath is not on the coast but substantially land-inwards.
 
The Gulf Stream accounts for only about 10% of the warming in Europe. Really, it's polar winds coming down the east coast of North America that makes the region colder. Also, the Pacific Ocean has the same situation - the west coast (ie, Japan, Korea) is colder than the same latitude on the east coast (Canada, US). Soooo...not too unreasonable to think that Belegaer might have a similar situation.

But my point was not to explain the climate of Beleriand - it was to compare modern American and modern European climates, and to point out that while latitude plays a role, it is not as definitive as one might think. So, be aware of the coastal and mountain effects, sure, but also of the impact of ocean currents and air currents on the overall climate.

Naturally, Beleriand's climate is impacted by Melkor's extreme cold in the north. The highlands of Dorthonion ought to protect Doriath from the worst of that. I understand that it is inland, which is why I picked a similarly inland region of France (Lorraine) to show that the difference in winters even holds true when you leave the coast.
 
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