"Elven Chess"

[kanji_d]

I did make a similar comment at the script discussion, saying I don't think Elves would play war games (I think the subject might be a bit taboo), but I am all for other kinds of abstract strategy games. Go is certainly one to take cues from, as it doesn't have explicit war imagery but has been used to teach strategy in such contexts still.

Throwing out more ideas here: what about a sort of board game version of capture the flag? I've got some vague ideas that I'm not ready to put into words but it doesn't have the same warfare connotations something like chess or the game I proposed has.

 

[Odola]

I am fine with designing a game that 'betrays' something about the mindset of elves or the condition of Doriath. I don't think that it has to be free from strategy, but doing something that most games don't do (but would make sense to an elf) is fine.

Something like this house game seems more in keeping with the elvish general perspective as even elves cannot be at several places at the same time. So it is an limitation that elves do share with humans.

In Doriath Melian's girdle takes care of that.

But elvish battles in general as described are won by their elvish power, magic and first and foremost by personal valour and provess of the individual fighter - and most of them are lost anyway. Never saw the elves do anything cunning even as simple as attacking in daylight or making stategic use of the enemy's week points. Also the Sindar especially - at least in the 3rd Age - show even a preference to "death over cooperation" (Amroth's father Amfor and Oropher would not cooperate with Gil-Galad and died as result with most of their armies). At all stategy seems alltogether not an elvish strong point or simply to the view point. They seems to rely on fate and personal strenght like Elrond and Gandalf deliberately not planning out the Quest to Mount Doom but relying on Providence and Frodo's hobbit resistance to The Ring The only thing cunning we see elves do is Finrod and Co dressing up as orcs - but even that is not done sucessfully - seems not to be thought out in all the details - too much relying on magic to little on logic imho.

Throwing out more ideas here: what about a sort of board game version of capture the flag? I've got some vague ideas that I'm not ready to put into words but it doesn't have the same warfare connotations something like chess or the game I proposed has.

I think also a Go-like game far more in character than something chess-like - even if I do know little about Go. Capture the flag seems also more feasible than chess to me.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Something like this house game seems more in krepiny with the elvish general perspective as even elves cannot be at several places at the same time. So it is an limitation that elves do share with humans.

In Doriath Melian's girdle takes care of that.

But elvish battles in general as described are won by their elvish power, magic and first and foremost by personal valour and provess of the individual fighter - and most of them are lost anyway. Never saw the elves do anything cunning even as simple as attacking in daylight or making stategic use of the enemy's week points. Also the Sindar especially - at least in the 3rd Age - show even a preference to "death over cooperation" (Amroth's father Amfor and Oropher would not cooperate with Gil-Galad and died as result with most of their armies). At all stategy seems alltogether not an elvish strong point or simply to the view point. They seems to rely on fate and personal strenght like Elrond and Gandalf deliberately not planning out the Quest to Mount Doom but relying on Providence and Frodo's hobbit resistance to The Ring The only thing cunning we see elves do is Finrod and Co dressing up as orcs - but even that is not done sucessfully - seems not to be thought out in all the details - too much relying on magic to little on logic imho.



I think also a Go-like game far more in character than something chess-like - even if I do know little about Go. Capture the flag seems also more feasible than chess to me.

Both the Dagor Aglareb and the Nirnaeth have descriptions of the Elves using strategy in battle, and in our adaptation, we have not shied away from that. Our Elves use and discuss strategy, though some are shown to be better at it than others.

 

[Odola]

[

Both the Dagor Aglareb and the Nirnaeth have descriptions of the Elves using strategy in battle, and in our adaptation, we have not shied away from that. Our Elves use and discuss strategy, though some are shown to be better at it than others.

O.k. so what are the strategic principles they are using?

Efficiency and prioritarisation, choosing function over form, usefulness over beauty, sacrificing details for the big picture, everybody doing their little part instead of one hero performing a big deed worthy of a song but which in the end remains effectless - it those attitudes seem to contradict the elvish approach to life. Those attitudes result in the end in making war a technology instead of an art - and that is completely un-elvish at its very core?

 

[MithLuin]

'Everyone doing their little part' would be the very definition of the Siege of Angband, which the Noldor built and maintained for nearly 400 years...

If you take 'form follows function' as an architectural principle, you do not need to choose function OVER form, nor sacrifice beauty to usefulness.

Himring is a star fort, showcasing one of the primary symbols of the House of Fëanor in a well-designed fortress that is difficult to take while it is defended. We have portrayed Maedhros as an imminently practical person, based on his dialogue as written by Tolkien. His definition of kingship seems to be 'a king is he who can hold his own,' and his deferral to Fingolfin as High King was certainly meant to be a practical choice to unite the Noldor (since the host of Fingolfin would never accept a son of Fëanor as their lord).

There is no reason why the elves could not show interest in 'The Art of War'.

 

[Odola]

There is no reason why the elves could not show interest in 'The Art of War'.

Oh, for sure they are.
But Art is individual, not collective. So is elvish sporach to war. It is showing off individual skill, valour, courage and heroism. Not weighting risks and maximazing opportunities.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Oh, for sure they are.
But Art is individual, not collective. So is elvish sporach to war. It is showing off individual skill, valour, courage and heroism. Not weighting risks and maximazing opportunities.

I'm not sure the text supports that position.

 

[Odola]

I'm not sure the text supports that position.

? The stories we have always focus on a hero's personal deeds and not on the cunning planning of a strategist. The only real elvish strategic planning is Idril with her tunnel - and even that seems more a reaction to a premonition feeling than real strategical thinking. Strategy at its core is based on future - on reaching future goals. But elves simply are not future-oriented - they are focused on restoring or preserving the past.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

? The stories we have always focus on a hero's personal deeds and not on the cunning planning of a strategist. The only real elvish strategic planning is Idril with her tunnel - and even that seems more a reaction to a premonition feeling than real strategical thinking. Strategy at its core is based on future - on reaching future goals. But elves simply are not future-oriented - they are focused on restoring or preserving the past.

But they do talk about and think about the future. They build things, cook food, plant crops... They create armor and weapons. You don't do those things if you're not thinking about the future.

During the Dagor Aglareb, Fingolfin and Maedhros work in unison to catch Morgoth's army between them where it is assaulting Dorthonion. The Nirnaeth is a huge undertaking with a bunch of moving parts.

The Elves do strategize. They don't all just hurl themselves heedlessly and idiotically at the enemy and hope for the best. I'm sorry if that's not part of your own internal adaptation, but it has been a part of SilmFilm since Season 3.

Are all Elves master strategists? No. I'd certainly argue that Finrod is not. And sometimes their strategies don't pan out. They are striving against cunning opponents after all.

But to say that the Elves don't strategize and don't think about the future seems wholly insupportable.

 

[Odola]

But they do talk about and think about the future. They build things, cook food, plant crops... They create armor and weapons. You don't do those things if you're not thinking about the future.

During the Dagor Aglareb, Fingolfin and Maedhros work in unison to catch Morgoth's army between them where it is assaulting Dorthonion. The Nirnaeth is a huge undertaking with a bunch of moving parts.

The Elves do strategize. They don't all just hurl themselves heedlessly and idiotically at the enemy and hope for the best. I'm sorry if that's not part of your own internal adaptation, but it has been a part of SilmFilm since Season 3.

Are all Elves master strategists? No. I'd certainly argue that Finrod is not. And sometimes their strategies don't pan out. They are striving against cunning opponents after all.

But to say that the Elves don't strategize and don't think about the future seems wholly insupportable.

What is Fingolfin's goal? To awenge Finwe and to punish Morgoth. Their goal is reactive.
They set up a siege and work reactively. That is the amount they are able to stategise for. Enought to keep alive and plan the next meal but imho not enought to enjoy a game of chess where what one does enjoy is one's brain actively playing with possibilities, probabilities and alternative futures which are in turn solely dependant on one's own and the oponnent's decissions and choices - and not at all on fate and premonitions.

Morgoth himself is not a great strategist either - he relies most on brute force and fear. Sauron is far more cunning as a stategist. He does use people's waeknesses against them - at least as Annatar.

Actually I myself do value Finrod's attempt at stategy - at least he has tried something new - quite innovative for an elf.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

What is Fingolfin's goal? To awenge Finwe and to punish Morgoth. Their goal is reactive.
They set up a siege and work reactively. That is the amount they are able to stategise for. Enought to keep alive and plan the next meal but imho not enought to enjoy a game of chess where what one does enjoy is one's brain actively playing with possibilities, probabilities and alternative futures which are in turn solely dependant on one's own and the oponnent's decissions and choices - and not at all on fate and premonitions.

Morgoth himself is not a great strategist either - he relies most on brute force and fear. Sauron is far more cunning as a stategist. He does use people's waeknesses against them - at least as Annatar.

Actually I myself do value Finrod's attempt at stategy - at least he has tried something new - quite innovative for an elf.

I think this is a bit of a reach. As I said, there are clear examples of the use of strategy by the Elves in the text, which your interpretation of the "Elvish mindset" has yet to overcome. And I'm not sure what the goal is here. The fact is that our elves, including Thingol and Mablung, do use strategy. This is how they have been characterized for the past three seasons. Now, that characterization might differ from your own internal adaptation, but it is SilmFilm, and we're not likely to retcon things back to S03 so what are we doing here?

 

[Odola]

I think this is a bit of a reach. As I said, there are clear examples of the use of strategy by the Elves in the text, which your interpretation of the "Elvish mindset" has yet to overcome. And I'm not sure what the goal is here. The fact is that our elves, including Thingol and Mablung, do use strategy. This is how they have been characterized for the past three seasons. Now, that characterization might differ from your own internal adaptation, but it is SilmFilm, and we're not likely to retcon things back to S03 so what are we doing here?

So please explain the elvish mindset of the Silmfilm and how does it differ from the human in a coherent and systematic way?

Elves being "fey" is the impression human have when observing elvish behaviour due to the very differences of outlook we speak about here, but for the elves the human attitudes are foreign and strange and not their own.

The differences I do speak about here are not some that I myself have invented, Tolkien himself invented them (even if some of those after most of the Silmarillion stories have been outlined already and not all of them he has had time enough to adjust to his new ideas).

And as Tolkien never had elves play chess nor even had mentioned any board games in any of his cultures
our use of chess in the story must be proven to fit the culture that Tolkien has described. Imho it simply does fit not here.

I could imagine Sauron playing chess with Thuringwethil or Saruman with Grima or even Finrod having a try at some human precursor of a board game with one of his human friends but not quite getting the point.

Thingol regularly enjoying a chess game is imho in story contradicted by his attempt at the "cunning council" against Beren. Thingol clearly misjudges his opponent and has no checks or backup plans in place in this assumed "strategy" - which would be typical for someone used to and enjoying to think as a chess player does. Also Melian's comment implies that this is not Thingol's normal modus operandi. This plan against Beren and especially its careless execution simply does not look like a work of a chess-player.

Imho Thingol playing chess is out of character for him himself as a person, for the Dorathim culture and for elvish attitudes in general.

You can of course dismiss my objections - no problem - but not the feeling of confussion chess' use in this contect will cause in the part of the audience which has a more analytic mind. And those are imho not so very few as it generally seems to be assumed.

Tolkien's work is loved also because he does take his reader seriously and aims to be coherant in his storytelling. I do think we should attempt the same.

Games that would be fitting for an elvish context would include musical, lingusitic, magical conjurings, "pure math" and astronomy. A board game feigning to predict the movement of constellations and planets in a imagined sky using the observed actual rules but involving invented celestrial objects or situations would imho be one to interest elves - in even Doriath. Sch a setup might even involve a Silmaril - wjhich in our story would be an anticipation of a Silmail endeing up as a celestrial bosy in the sky and explain Thingol's thinking of a Silmaril at all - when he never has seen one in real life before.

 

[MithLuin]

Gandalf says 'the board is set, the pieces are moving' when he is in Minas Tirith before the battle of the Pelennor Fields. And he says that a piece he wants to know the whereabouts of is Faramir.

'Well, no need to brood on what tomorrow may bring. For one thing, tomorrow will be certain to bring worse than today, for many days to come. And there is nothing that I can do to help it. The board is set, and the pieces are moving. One piece that I greatly desire to find is Faramir, now the heir of Denethor. I do not think he is in the City; but I have no time to gather news. I must go, Pippin. I must go to this lords' council and learn what I can. But the enemy has the move, and he is about to open his full game. And pawns are likely to see as much of it as any, Peregrin son of Paladin, soldier of Gondor. Sharpen your blade!'

So it is not the case that Tolkien 'never had elves play chess nor even had mentioned any board games in any of his cultures.'. A chess-like board game is part of Gandalf's knowledge of Third Age Middle-earth. Pippin doesn't seem confused by this reference, so it is even possible hobbits have such a game.

Pippin looked at [Beregond]: tall and proud and noble, as all the men that he had yet seen in that land; and with a glitter in his eye as he thought of the battle. 'Alas! my own hand feels as light as a feather,' he thought, but he said nothing. 'A pawn did Gandalf say? Perhaps; but on the wrong chessboard.'

One can argue that this is a 'translation' situation, where hobbits don't actually have chess, and when translating the Red Book to English, 'chessboard' is substituted for whatever board game the hobbits have. But...it would be difficult to argue that they have no board games at all!

I know that Tolkien gave Elves an outlook that is heavy on the fate and preservation of the past. But he also wrote multiple battles into the First Age of Middle-earth, and not all of them were initiated by Morgoth. So it is simply not true to say that elves have no concept of strategy. They do. They have goals that they are working towards, including 'maintain the Siege' and 'reclaim the silmarils' and 'defeat Morgoth'. This suggests to me that the elven outlook Tolkien described is not so extreme nor absolute as to preclude the use of strategy.

Many characters are fey at a particular time, not as a general way to go through life. Being fey in battle is not limited to elven characters, either. Theoden clearly has his moments, but Faramir, too.

 

[Odola]

Gandalf says 'the board is set, the pieces are moving' when he is in Minas Tirith before the battle of the Pelennor Fields. And he says that a piece he wants to know the whereabouts of is Faramir.

Great that you have found it. (The only game I have remembered was golf and the hobbits.)

But still clealy a purely human setting and context.

So it is not the case that Tolkien 'never had elves play chess nor even had mentioned any board games in any of his cultures.'. A chess-like board game is part of Gandalf's knowledge of Third Age Middle-earth. Pippin doesn't seem confused by this reference, so it is even possible hobbits have such a game.

I admit you have proven the point for humans - and hobbits - but hobbits do play human games - and we do know this already.
But for elves my objection still does apply.

I know that Tolkien gave Elves an outlook that is heavy on the fate and preservation of the past. But he also wrote multiple battles into the First Age of Middle-earth, and not all of them were initiated by Morgoth. So it is simply not true to say that elves have no concept of strategy. They do. They have goals that they are working towards, including 'maintain the Siege' and 'reclaim the silmarils' and 'defeat Morgoth'. This suggests to me that the elven outlook Tolkien described is not so extreme nor absolute as to preclude the use of strategy.

I have never claimed elves have no sense for applied strategy at all - they would be unable to hunt ot to plan a musical piece or an artisitc performance or even to plan a meal if that were the case.
But playing stategy for the mere fun of it - I fail to see how this would be an elvish thing.
A human life due to its shortness and many limitations forces the human to watch everything with a stategic mind - as such this - elves do not have to do that - then why would they?
Why would they play a human game? Dwarves I can imagine playing chess, they are mortals too. But elves?

Many characters are fey at a particular time, not as a general way to go through life. Being fey in battle is not limited to elven characters, either. Theoden clearly has his moments, but Faramir, too.

Still Luthien is not in a battle and is still exerienced as fey. Fey does not only describe someone on an adrenalin high - it describes someone acting irrational from an usual human standpoint.

 

[Vibes]

So, they could play luck based games., not necessarily strategic or war game. But there must be some story element. I don't think that elves with their penchant for tales would skip on that. Something like senet maybe.

On a completely non serious take, they might have something like the game "Life" ... just saying. Making an elvish take on the game "Life" might be silly af but also kinda fun ngl.

 

[Odola]

So, they could play luck based games., not necessarily strategic or war game. But there must be some story element. I don't think that elves with their penchant for tales would skip on that. Something like senet maybe.

On a completely non serious take, they might have something like the game "Life" ... just saying. Making an elvish take on the game "Life might be silly af but also kinda fun ngl"

Senet or Go (as little I understand of it it could just pass as as much stategy as elves can be expected to use).

Or a star constellation game in an subcreatively invented alternative night sky - where one oppenent might invent to put in the Silmarill as a hypothetical celestrial object surprising Thingol and making him think of one.

 

[MithLuin]

I am fine with designing a game that has elvish character. That is, indeed, the point of this exercise. I am not super interested in having this game be absent of all strategy. You have argued that it cannot be chess. Good. No one wants it to be chess. We were hoping to use tafl as a starting point. Another friend was talking about board games in Middle-earth some years ago, and mentioned that a Numenorean game would be more likely to imitate sea battles, where a hobbit game would be instead about foxes and geese. It could be 'the same game' on some level, but...

The game 'Tak' is based on Pat Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles. I haven't read those books, so I have no idea how well the game matches the world of the story, but I do know the author was thrilled with it, so they must've gotten something right.

 

[Odola]

I am fine with designing a game that has elvish character. That is, indeed, the point of this exercise. I am not super interested in having this game be absent of all strategy. You have argued that it cannot be chess. Good. No one wants it to be chess.

? I undestood @Nicholas Palazzo insisted on it being chesslike?

Ok, so what constitutes an "elvish character" according to the rules of Silmfilm?
I have stated what I do consider an elvish character according to my knowlegde and understanding of Tolkien's statements about how elves differ from humans. I met some opposition to my understanding of Tolkien ideas, still you still have not presented your's or provided a binding framewok for SilmFilm regarding this matter?

 

[MithLuin]

From the original discussion introducing the idea of Thingol and Mablung playing a game (which you will find linked at the beginning of this thread):

[Earlier in this session, we had mused over what Galadriel and Lúthien were doing in another scene, and Nick had somewhat jokingly suggested they be playing a board game, such as backgammon.]​

​

Nick: They could be playing a board game!​

Marie: Okay, fine. Do elves have chess?​

Nick: A chess-like game.​

Marie: Ok, if it were anime, it would be shogi, so do elves have...​

Nick: There's a game they play in Vikings, there's a particular Norse game that you see them playing.​

Marie: Skittles?​

Nick: Might be.​

Marie: I've never seen Vikings.​

Nick: It is pawns on a board....​

Marie: I think it's called Skittles. Wait, no it's not. What is it called? Because Skittles is more like bowling, maybe? No.​

Marie: Nine Men's Morris?​

Nick: Tafl​

Marie: Tafl​

Nick: Yep, that's it, that's the one. I've seen this. Okay.​

Marie: Yeah, yeah, that's Norse.​

Nick: Yeah, and Celtic, also. So something like that works, yeah, sure.​

Marie: Alright, so, they're playing an elvish game...​

Nick: But I kinda like the idea of it being pawns on a board. I don't care what all it looks like.​

So, as I pointed out in that post, the original suggestion and starting point for this conversation is not chess, but tafl. Dillon's first attempt at creating a board is based at least in part on a tafl board.

 

[Vibes]

I still like the idea of a Senet like game. Like it involves knowledge and still a fair bit of luck. Also, it has a sort of goal and story if one could call it.