"Elven Chess"

[MithLuin]

So please explain the elvish mindset of the Silmfilm and how does it differ from the human in a coherent and systematic way?

We have discussed the elven viewpoints and world view in Silm Film multiple times. Here are a few examples of those discussions:

Session 5-27: Differing natures of Elves and Men - focus on nature

Session 5-19: Interactions between humans and elves in Season 5:

Session 4-17: Crafting Magic Swords and how Elves deal with amputation

Session 5-37: Discussion Episode 5x11: The Athrabeth

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

? I undestood @Nicholas Palazzo insisted on it being chesslike?

Ok, so what constitutes an "elvish character" according to the rules of Silmfilm?
I have stated what I do consider an elvish character according to my knowlegde and understanding of Tolkien's statements about how elves differ from humans. I met some opposition to my understanding of Tolkien ideas, still you still have not presented your's or provided a binding framewok for SilmFilm regarding this matter?

So, yes, the first thought in my head during a discussion several years ago was that the game would be chess-like. I don't think that qualifies as insistence by any means. All I'm insisting is that the Elves use strategy. I've cited examples from the text.

I've also pointed out that regardless of how you interpret those examples, use of strategy is part of the characterization of the Elves on our show going back to Season 3. This is why I'm asking what your goal here is, because it seems like you are asking us at best to abandon that characterization, and at worst to retcon it.


As to the differences in SilmFilm between Elves and Men and the way they think, that has been discussed at length in the examples Marie gave, but also in many other discussions for several years.

Instead of insisting that we retread over all of that ground, why don't we focus on the season we are currently working on and accept that seasons 1-5 of SilmFilm did in fact exist?

 

[Odola]

So, yes, the first thought in my head during a discussion several years ago was that the game would be chess-like. I don't think that qualifies as insistence by any means. All I'm insisting is that the Elves use strategy. I've cited examples from the text.


As to the differences in SilmFilm between Elves and Men and the way they think, that has been discussed at length in the examples Marie gave, but also in many other discussions for several years.

Instead of insisting that we retread over all of that ground, why don't we focus on the season we are currently working on and accept that seasons 1-5 of SilmFilm did in fact exist?

Have to reread the thread as I have missed all the citations.

Will summarise the videos during the week as I have the family meeting today and no time for it, so that we have a reference framework.

My goal is to achieve the characters are inwardly consistant and not mere plot devices. That they actions and decissions make sense from their own standpoint. Imho elves should be less conflicted and contradictory than humans in their innermost beings - not more.

Some strategy elves do use - as I have stated - they could not hunt otherwise. But their strategy centers on individual valour and strenght, magic and premonitions.

But elves are generally little interested in inderstanding their opponents - in TLOTR it od stated many times e.g. that elves do not care to understand mortals. So I do doubt they ever want to understand orcs or their captains. And an interest in inderstanding the other's perspective (among elves Finrod is the one to do this) is a prerequisite to play chess where one has to anticipate the other's movement.

 

[MithLuin]

For the millionth time, no one is suggesting that Thingol is a chess master!

My mom taught me how to play chess when I was 6 years old. Six year olds do not understand that other people have unique viewpoints. Ie, they see the world through their eyes only, and cannot put themselves in another's shoes. It's why they're not self-conscious. But they *can* understand how chess pieces move. I beat her in the first game we played, and because I was 6, I didn't realize that she let me win. (She always insisted she didn't, but c'mon)

All that has been suggested, at any point, is that Thingol and Mablung enjoy playing a regular game with one another, and it involves moving pawns on a board. And yes, it's a strategy game. Can we accept that this is an approved element of the story in Silm Film and focus on suggesting designs for the game?

If you don't like elves playing strategy games, that's fine. No one has to take part in the planning process if they don't want to. But this thread is for planning, not for debating whether or not the game can exist.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

But elves are generally little interested in inderstanding their opponents - in TLOTR it od stated many times e.g. that elves do not care to understand mortals. So I do doubt they ever want to understand orcs or their captains. And an interest in inderstanding the other's perspective (among elves Finrod is the one to do this) is a prerequisite to play chess where one has to anticipate the other's movement.

Given that the Elves use strategy in both the Dagor Aglareb (which they win) and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (which they start), I cannot agree with this interpretation.

In addition, our Elves have used and discussed strategy in S02E11, S03E02, S03E09, S03E10, S03E11, S04E09, S04E13, S05E11, S05E12, S05E13, S06E01, and S06E03.

 

[MithLuin]

This image is from the Black Widow film:



Clint Barton and Natasha Romanov were trapped in a location for two days, and while there, they seemingly played tic-tac-toe a few times. For anyone who understands how tic-tac-toe works, you either win or draw. Losing tic-tac-toe is very...avoidable. And yet, somehow that complete nonsense game above got played. X apparently went first. And apparently the last open space was the upper left corner. This definitely means that the player for O either a) didn't understand how tic-tac-toe works or b) let X win. Also, the player for X did not take their first opportunity to win. Considering this game took place when Clint Barton was trying to bring in the Black Widow alive to have her change sides, they both had motivations to butter up the other person. Or they just wanted to mess with each other. Either way, it's a weird game.

One could conclude that neither character understands strategy (false) or that one of the characters is an idiot (also false).

 

[Odola]

For the millionth time, no one is suggesting that Thingol is a chess master! .

I am fine with you using a stategy game if you fancy it regarless if it fits a character or his culture or not. Really not a problem for my personally. But I can point out the fact that imho it does not fit it and explain why to those who do ask. Are we not here to discuss and deepen our inderstanding of Tolkien works and ideas? Is this not the core of SilmFilm adaptation attempt - to check what questions to the texts will appear in the process?
As such I have stated my case and who wants is able to understand my reasoning.
Still I would prefer arguments from the texts then questioning my motivations. There is no duty to agree with me.

But still the stayement above I simply cannot leave unanswered - because if Thingol really regularly plays a chess-type game for millenia already - be it chess or tafl - he simply has to be a master in it. No way around it. ;-)

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I am fine with you using a stategy game if you fancy it regarless if it fits a character or his culture or not. Really not a problem for my personally. But I can point out the fact that imho it does not fit it and explain why to those who do ask. Are we not here to discuss and deepen our inderstanding of Tolkien works and ideas?

Ok, this is the last time I'm going to respond on this point. You can point out that you think something doesn't fit. You've done so at many points in this discussion. We can also point out why we think it does fit based on the original text, and the history of our adaptation. This includes Season 5, in which you took part yourself.

Discussion has taken place, so let us not claim an aggrieved position as if that has not been allowed. Every attempt has been made to explain the inspiration for this element and its history in the adaptation. Now we're going to move on. You can join us or not at your discretion.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I still like the idea of a Senet like game. Like it involves knowledge and still a fair bit of luck. Also, it has a sort of goal and story if one could call it.

Senet is an interesting game, kind of like a slightly less random Snakes and Ladders (which given the relationship between what each of them is abstracting, there might be a link). Still a little swingy for something one would play repeatedly for millenia.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Alright, here's a drawing of my idea (expanded to a 15x15 board but that may end up being unnecessary now that I look at it). Letters represent pieces. The rules are as follows:

The Island player has 17 pieces (E for Elf). They move two orthogonal spaces on their turn (these can sum to one diagonal move).

The outside player has 20 pieces of differing type: four Commanders (C), eight cavalry (V), and eight infantry (I). The commanders move like a chess queen, but a maximum of five spaces. The cavalry move like the Elves. The Infantry move one orthogonal space.

The Island player wins if they capture (capturing occurs as in chess) all pieces of the opponent, except three of their commanders (which may be captured but are not necessary). The Outside player wins if they bring all of their commanders to the center nine squares (but may substitute 2 cavalry for each commander).

The rules of the lake are as follows: the Elves may cross the lake at will. The Outside player's pieces must cross at the boat spaces, and must stop on the space before continuing.

Now, I've not playtested this at all to see if it is balanced, so feel free to critique it or offer alternative rules or setups.

View attachment 4304

Ok, two notes. One, I'd consider reducing the board size by about a third. Shrinking the board size increases the number of player interactions so the players spend less time wandering around the play space. Two, if you're uncomfortable with it being explicitly a war game, it could be further abstracted

 

[kanji_d]

Ok, two notes. One, I'd consider reducing the board size by about a third. Shrinking the board size increases the number of player interactions so the players spend less time wandering around the play space. Two, if you're uncomfortable with it being explicitly a war game, it could be further abstracted

Yeah, I realized after drawing out the pieces that the outside player's took up far less space than I thought. I think you're right that a 9x9 board (about a third smaller) would work fine. This was just an initial idea to get thoughts on paper. I definitely did not need to flesh out the rules as much as I did.