Episode 0-1

I also think it should be treated like a prologue - and animated - but I don't think it should be cartoonish, or even traditional animation like Fantasia. I think it should be something like in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows pt 1 where Hermione tells the story of the three brothers. An ink and parchment type animation that is very dreamlike and striking and that can tell the story of the Illuvatar and the Valar quickly and beautifully while still leaving much to one's imagination.

I have embedded a link to the Potter scene mentioned above for reference:

 
Tervor Trumbull said:
How are you defining myth?.
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As you say, in the etiological sense of an explanatory story or legend. The Ainulindale is pretty clearly of a piece with this kind of myth. As for the notion that the Elves learnt directly from the Valar - wellthis is a highly problematic idea for a few reasons. Firstly, how are we to 'know' when the Ainulindale was written, and by whom? We can assume it is an Elvish or Numenorean document, but that doesn't help much. We still don't know when it was written and what kind of "chain of reading" constitutes its sources. Within the secondary world, it probably isn't itself a one off compilation, and was probably subject to a great deal of editing and scholarly intervention - as texts of similar provenance and genre are in the primary world. Is that taking things too far? Maybe, but then Tolkien has intentionally written a document that resembles not an objective historical record, or a chronicle, or a modern historiographical examination, but an etiological myth. We have two choices, therefore, in adapting it. We could take it literally, which ignores the genre of the piece and treats it as a straightforward recounting of history, which it is not, or we can treat it as a story within the secondary world, which it more closely resembles. Having the basics of it recounted in the frame would therefore make sense. The audience is not obliged to necessarily make any judgement as to the 'historical' truth contained therein but has merely to understand that, for all intents and purposes, the story forms the background for the events that are actually being shown as it is understood by the characters. I think the "Quenta" is independent enough of the 'theological' message of the Ainulindale that any literal telling of it is unnecessary.

I do think it is necessary to 'recount' it (as a myth, that is an appropriate way to handle it, I think) but not to show it, as this makes it literal and therefore presumably, objectively true in some sense in the secondary world. As I've said, I think that is a mistake.
 
1) I think Iluvatar could be represented as "off-screen" but of complete and comprehensive authority. When the text requires Iluvater to "say" something, the Valar will respond as if it was said, repeating as necessary for the viewer's benefit. There is never any question among the Valar what was said or if it was said.

2) I think the Valar should be of mutable form. But there should be some devices that emphasize their supernatural aspect. If I were to list specific aspects:

a) This opportunity should not be lost to cast human actors in these roles. This is a production for screen and the creative assets of Hollywood should not be left to the side.
b) I think the Valar should be 1.5 times the size of whoever they are talking to. If they are talking to a group, they could gain size to increase their majesty. I suggested already some mutability for them. They should not be so large that an elf and a Valar could not share a collaborative endeavor like working a forge.
c) To convey their supernatural character, and to present a common device that unambiguously distinguishes them from elves and from the other "immortal" entities like Maiar and Tom Bombadil, I'd convey a sense of four-dimensional depth. Their most superficial presentation (the actor in costume) could be 20% transparent with an 'inner body' apparent through the body (peering through the depth of a fourth dimension) occupying, say, 80% of their superficial volume.
 
Trish Lambert said:
  1. How shall we portray Iluvatar?
  2. How shall we portray the Valar?
  3. How shall we deal with songs/magic?
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Use the setting of the Council of Elrond as the frame for the Ainulindale. Gandalf could act out the part of Iluvatar in a dramatic reading of the text. After all, he was there at the Music of the Ainur, who better to tell it?
 
Tevildo said:
Use the setting of the Council of Elrond as the frame for the Ainulindale. Gandalf could act out the part of Iluvatar in a dramatic reading of the text. After all, he was there at the Music of the Ainur, who better to tell it?
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This sounds like gathering at Super Bowl LI and breaking out into a thirty minute recitation of the 1953 NFL Championship Game Program. There are immediate issues on discussion, but ancient history would hardly reach back before the First Age in that conversation.
 
angeloftranshumanflesh said:
I do think it is necessary to 'recount' it (as a myth, that is an appropriate way to handle it, I think) but not to show it, as this makes it literal and therefore presumably, objectively true in some sense in the secondary world. As I've said, I think that is a mistake.
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Very good points, angeloftranshumanflesh. It might be better to have it recounted, instead of played out directly. This can be done by a narration over live action, CGI, or animation. The music bit might be hard to do with actors, but when the Valar enter Arda, they at least should get some sort of bodies.
 
One potential indirect depiction of the Music would be to show some kind of liturgical ceremony (conducted either by the Valar, the elves, or the Numenorians) - possibly at one of the festivals mentioned in the Quenta where the events is conveyed through various forms of symbolism as a means of remembrance. More specifically, I could see this sort of a scene working well as simultaneous to and intercut with Melkor and Ungoliant's attack on the trees (the sound of the discord reaching its climax at the actual attack).
 
That is an interesting idea. I'm not sure religious ceremonies like liturgies were ever really conducted by, say, Elves, because their 'religious' sensibilities are far more attuned to the natural world and the Valar as objects of awesome reverence than actual 'worship'.
 
I like the idea of not portraying Iluvatar. If we do, though, It should be just something abstract, nothing anthropomorphic. Maybe a large, white-hot star that pulses when he speaks. Either way, I think his voice should be something like a whisper, to contrast with Melkor's clanging, clamoring voice. Maybe a whisper underlaid with soft, muted soprano singing.

The Valar shouldn't be anthropomorphic before the creation of Arda, either. Or at least not before the vision they have of the Children of Iluvatar. Maybe bright, sparkling bursts of color that also pulse when they speak. An earthy red (the color of clay) for Aule, green for Yavanna, a bright purple for Varda, blue for Ulmo, flesh tones for Tulkas, somber grey for Nienna, etc. Firey red for Melkor.

As for songs, how about using English in low, chanting voices (reminiscent of monks chanting), but underlaid by voices in higher register singing in Elvish, like the soprano voices singing Quenya in the Peter Jackson films?
 
I was originally wondering if the Music of the Ainur might actually be a frame narrative. At least in that there is a sense that the music parallels the events in Middle Earth in some mysterious way; but I think that would probably be too problematic. However how about the Valar and the music is featured in the credits sequence? Like with Game of Thrones there is this almost narrative sense to the credits, and it changes over seasons, what about an awesome looking credits sequence featuring the diferent Valar and Iluvatar creating the music in a visually poetic way that also reflects a little on the stories of the moment? So when Melkor introduces the disharmony that could make the credits sequence for that series sort of have a certain tone to it -- there is a major thematic musical piece, but it gets different nuances and treatments.

I think making the credit sequence focus on the music and the Valar/Iluvatar is a kinda nice way to have them feature strongly, and give the music of the Ainur some prominence, like it does in the book, but frame it in a way where it has a little licence to be more poetic visually and narratively. I also think it works because the music isn't really just one event at the start of the book, I don't think it would work well to portray it that way, it is something that permeates and resonates throughout. So as something that kicks off each episode, could be a great way to get across that sense of creation that it has in the book.
 
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angeloftranshumanflesh said:
That is an interesting idea. I'm not sure religious ceremonies like liturgies were ever really conducted by, say, Elves, because their 'religious' sensibilities are far more attuned to the natural world and the Valar as objects of awesome reverence than actual 'worship'.
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To say that religious ceremonies were not *really* conducted by the elves is only to say that in Tolkien's own telling he did not choose to convey such details. But in creating an adaptation we want to consider not only the source material but how we can effectively convey its weight to modern audiences. While I agree with you in preference for having the Ainulindale told as opposed to depicted directly, having that telling look no different from say the telling of the tale of Beren and Luthien would fail to convey how the work sticks out as a foundational worldview-defining text for the elves. The best analogy most viewers would have for hearing such a text told would be in a religious liturgy and so it makes sense to create such a scene in order to contextualize its meaning for viewers.

All that being said, when I say a liturgy, it need not be aesthetically akin to classical Judeo-Christian liturgies (stained glass, pews, etc.) but could reflect a more naturalistic/forest aesthetic. Also, when I say "liturgy" I don't necessarily mean prayers, various readings, etc. but have in mind more of a kind of dramatic reenactment (think more along the lines of ancient Greek dramas)
 
I'm going to go against the flow here and suggest a fully anthropomorphic representation of the Ainulindalë. I feel like if we did a fantasia type depiction, you'd confuse people who have no idea what's going on. The Ainulindalë is *already* an incredibly confusing text for a lot of people, so simplifying it is probably the way to go.

So my suggestion is to go with what in-universe is the explanation of where the Silm came from: Bilbo translated it. So have Bilbo as the frame narrator, either in Rivendell in his retirement, or perhaps even in the Halls of Mandos before he jaunts off out of the Circles of Arda. Then you can clearly have the depiction as what Bilbo imagines is going on, which removes the 'everyone has their own ideas about what Ilúvatar looks like' and the 'but they really didn't have physical form' problems. Just have Bilbo or whoever is explaining this to him mention those facts.

Bilbo as the frame narrator also neatly manages to tie in both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, creating the continuity needed to help pull the already existing fans into the story. If you have at least one character you know, it will make it easier to introduce 15 new ones!
 
The exceptional depth of discussion on this first topic has me very excited for the next 10 years. Greetings everyone, I am excited to "work" with you! At some point, if a core group of us end up posting regularly, we should strive to get to know one another. The Internet thrives on anonymity, but we can certainly be more personal. My name is Jeff, I live in Chicago, and I have a dog named Mya. She is a trouble-maker, and a far cry from Huan.

Here are my brief thoughts on the three questions Trish posted:

1. I am in the minority that believes Iluvatar should be both corporeal and live-action. It will be very easy to portray that Eru's essence is infinite without keeping it completely abstract: for example, start with a bright point of light coalescing into a throned figure, and use echo effects or an aura to show that it is simply a single manifestation of Eru's power. I also believe we should take some artistic liberty and make Iluvatar female. Tolkien goes out of his way to say the Ainur have no intrinsic gender, but rather that it is simply a function of their disposition, and I see no reason why Eru should be any different. Despite the implied masculinity of the Judeo-Christian deity on which Eru is based, I think a creation myth is more resonant with a female God (the giver of life). It also goes a long way to challenge one of the most common criticisms of Tolkien's work...

2. Everyone else's ideas on the Valar are great, and I have little original perspective to add. I do think they should be normal-sized humanoids rather than giants, however. One of the central premises of Tolkien's work (especially LOTR and Hobbit) is that power and size are unrelated. If we can depict the authority of the Valar without resorting to a physical size difference, we will have done Tolkien proud. We can still make it obvious based on their look and sound that they are a different caliber of essence than the Children.

3. Magic should surely be music, but music can be interpreted broadly as sound. Essentially, I think we stay true to Tolkien as long as we don't have anyone using wands or staffs to cast their "magic." Creation and transformation through spoken word, poetry, song, and instrumental music are all equally resonant and faithful as far as I'm concerned.

Keep up the great work, everyone. And buckle up; it's going to be a long ride!
 
JBramson said:
Tolkien goes out of his way to say the Ainur have no intrinsic gender, but rather that it is simply a function of their disposition, and I see no reason why Eru should be any different.
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I do. The Ainur are compared to splintered light, each reflecting a specific aspect of Eru's total being. So it makes sense that they would be some male and some female in their personality, though not literally having gender. However, this is not true of Eru. He is a full personality, the totality and perfection of what is expressed partially by gender. To represent him as either male or female would be to cast him in this same splintered, incomplete framework as all the Ainur properly should exist in, but in which Eru absolutely should not.

JBramson said:
One of the central premises of Tolkien's work (especially LOTR and Hobbit) is that power and size are unrelated.
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I partially agree with this, but I don't think that Tolkien consistently applies this idea. Professor Olsen has pointed out numerous times in the past that there does seem to be a definite trend of height or stature = power, at least among Men and Elves.
 
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Both very good points, Michael. With respect to height, it seems to me there is a pretty stark distinction between the stature of heroes in the Silmarillion (Thingol and Turin both being very tall, e.g.) and in the other works (hobbits, Gandalf > Balrog, etc.). But we have a choice as to which approach is more resonant with our depiction, and I personally like the idea of power and authority being portrayed as metaphysical rather than physical characteristics. I also see your point about Eru, and it's a good one. I would just hate to leave out a very interesting and dynamic character like Eru just because he/she/it is hard to depict as a single manifestation of the Infinite. The same argument could be used to obscure the Valar essentially until the arrival of the Eldar, but we lose the opportunity of developing their characters by relying too heavily on their nature as spiritual beings. Obviously the Ainur and Iluvatar are not the same, but the challenges are similar.
 
I second the suggestions for portraying the Ainulindale as a Prologue or tale told later (but still in the first season). It seems like it could be an awkward first episode, but would work great as a tale told by frame characters later on. I was also thinking of the Deathly Hollows and the Tale of the Three Brothers when I was envisioning this tale. If the animation was done well and with the right style I don't think that it would be jarring or detract from the story. Instead I think it would lend to the mythic quality of it.
 
I like the idea of using a character from the Silmarillion as a frame a lot. I would tweak it though to tell the back story throughout the first (and maybe even later) seasons.

I think that recent TV shows have done this with good success (Arrow, Daredevil, Revolution). In these shows the back story often has pertinence to what is going on in the current life of the hero.

Doing it this way allows the audience to identify with a character right away and the viewer can become invested in the story.
 
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