Fatty's family relationships

Anthony Lawther

Well-Known Member
I'm only 73 episodes behind, so wouldn't expect this to be addressed on the stream, but in listening to episode 21 I noticed that Corey stated that Merry and Pippin are aristocracy and Frodo and Fatty are only semi-aristocracy.

Is this due to their perceived distance in line of succession from the current Thane and Master? I note that Fatty, Pippin, and Merry all share the Old Took as their great-great grandfather, with Merry and Pippin descended from the third son, Hildigrim, and Fatty descended from the eighth son Hildibrand. Bilbo's mother was the Old Took's oldest daughter who was next younger to Hildibrand. Frodo's grandmother Mirabella was the Old Took's youngest daughter and second youngest child, so in that line of succession would be lowest.

Merry and Pippin as direct heirs apparent to their respective family line's titles are undoubtedly of higher station, but from a line of succession perspective Fatty would actually outrank even Bilbo, who is 1st cousin twice removed to each of Fatty, Merry, and Pippin in the Took line, and certainly would outrank Frodo.

If we saw the Thane and Master as somewhat equivalent to Dukes under King Elessar, with Merry and Pippin as Margraves, then would Fatty be around Baron or Baronet, with Bilbo and Frodo merely Gentleman / Lairds?
 
I find it most interesting that Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Pippin and Fatty are all descended from one of the three marvelous daughters of the Old Took: Belladonna, Donnamira and Mirabella. Some of Sam's grandchildren, by virtue of his daughter's marriage to Pippin's son, acquire that illustrious bloodline as well.
 
I think it's both simpler and more complicated.

Simpler, because surnames are all that matter. Merry and Pippin are Brandybuck and Took - aristocracy. Frodo and Fatty are Baggins and Bolger - semi-aristocracy. Merry and Pippin would have titles and duties appropriate for Brandybucks and Tooks, and Frodo and Fatty would have titles and duties appropriate for Bagginses and Bolgers. Neat and tidy.

More complicated, because even though there are familial links and marriages and cousins and aunties and whatever, aristocracy is pretty much bog-standard patriarchal primogeniture. As soon as the Old Took's three wonderful daughters married, they effectively aren't Tooks anymore. Nobody really cares who your mother was before she married, as far as determining your station in life (Bilbo is a Baggins, he is NOT a Took, even if he has a Took-ish adventure). And more complicated because, important as it is to them, it seems to be orders of magnitude less important for Hobbits than it was for RL humans.
 
I find it most interesting that Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Pippin and Fatty are all descended from one of the three marvelous daughters of the Old Took: Belladonna, Donnamira and Mirabella. Some of Sam's grandchildren, by virtue of his daughter's marriage to Pippin's son, acquire that illustrious bloodline as well.
This is not quite the case: Merry and Pippin descend from the Old Took by the third son Hildigrim, and Fatty by the eighth son Hildibrand; Merry (on his father's side), Frodo, and Bilbo are descended from the daughters of the Old Took. Pippin's mother was a Banks, and we have no further detail on her lineage.
 
on the Boffin tree: Fredegar Bolger is descended from Jessamine Boffin, daughter of Donnamira
on the Took tree: Bilbo is the son of Belladonna; Frodo the grandson of Mirabella
on the Brandybuck tree: Meriadoc is the great-grandson of Mirabella

But you are correct about Pippin (who is, oddly enough, the only Took). I must have misread something on my Kindle, and had to go back to my hardcover edition to double check.

But of course they are all descended from the Old Took.
 
on the Boffin tree: Fredegar Bolger is descended from Jessamine Boffin, daughter of Donnamira
on the Took tree: Bilbo is the son of Belladonna; Frodo the grandson of Mirabella
on the Brandybuck tree: Meriadoc is the great-grandson of Mirabella

But you are correct about Pippin (who is, oddly enough, the only Took). I must have misread something on my Kindle, and had to go back to my hardcover edition to double check.

But of course they are all descended from the Old Took.
I missed the Boffin connection. I sit corrected. :)
 
Before I begin, let me issue one caveat: Hobbits don’t appear to have a strict titular hierarchy. They appear to be more concerned about the connections between the great families (note their fascination with geneologies) and there appears to be some sense of rank but I suspect they would be much more concerned with its implications for who goes down to dinner first rather than who is “in charge”.

Instead of thinking of them as Dukes, you may wish to ascribe to the Thain the parallel of a Prince, as that is the rank Pippin will be accorded in Minas Tirith. Regardless, Pippin and Merry are likely on close to equal footing, as Merry is the heir to the colony of the Shire across the wide expanse of the Brandywine. (The Shire, of course, being thought of as a colony by the hobbitry of Bree....). Pippin would, in some sense, be accorded “royal” status. I suspect that the Brandybucks would be considered nobility.

The Bagginses appear to be landed gentry rather than nobility — although they might be able to claim noble status through the Took line. In addition, the place name (Bag End — Baggins) implies something like a petty title — a Baronet or a hereditary knighthood.

One think that is interesting about the entire thing for me is the studdied indifference they all have to their titltes when together but they aspire to act appropriately to their place when the situation calls for them to step up into their hereditary roles — especially Merry and Pippin when they are in Rohan and Gondor in the presence of the Great and Good. We have already noted a few instances when they try (usually unsuccessfully) in these early passages.
 
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