First Age Elf Armor

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Shouldn't this thread be in the Costume forum?

Now, there's a lot of conflicting information on this out there, but I would like to address the idea that plate armor is so heavy that you can't fight on foot in it.

It wasn't. That idea comes from 19th century historians looking and handling ceremonial or tournament armor, neither of which were designed for real combat.

Actual battle armor worn by knights in combat was no heavier than the kit carried by soldiers today.
It was my understanding that knights did die by drowning in the mud of the (very muddy, very wet, very treacherous) field at the Battle of Agincourt. I'm not saying they were as useless as flipped turtles in their armor, but they were obviously encumbered enough to drown in mud after being unhorsed (unless I've got that account wrong). The Battle of Agincourt is of course well known for the English bowmen outclassing the French. Henry V was called the 'Butcher of Agincourt' by the French in the aftermath.




While much of the armor depicted in Peter Jackson's LotR films is quite practical, the armor of the Elves in the Last Alliance is *not* and I have no desire to copy it in any way - that is strictly 'fantasy' armor that is meant to look cool.


We will have evolving/changing armies over time.

The Green Elves, early in Season 3, should...not have armor. And they all get slaughtered. From then on, we see a lot more armor in fights!

Hardened leather for the more rustic groups (Sindar, but not necessarily Sindar of Doriath, especially not later). Maille does work best in conjunction with other armor, as it's not going to protect you from an arrow. (not even mithril!)
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So, just to quickly talk about the Battle of Agincourt, since it has come up twice.

Yes, armor does add weight to a person's body. Contemporary accounts of the battle talk about the French men at arms sinking knee-deep into the mud as they were walking, and that many of their knights were forced to fight on foot because the horses couldn't make their way through the muck. They were also forced to lower their visors because of the hail of arrows coming from the English longbowmen, restricting their breathing as they trudged through the mud.

Now, the knights that were able to fight from horseback were completely safe in their armor, but their horses were not. Most of the cavalry casualties due to arrow fire were horses rather than men. Knights thrown from their horses did have a hard time pulling themselves out of the deep mud, and it is likely that there were many that lost consciousness either from the fall, or from exhaustion. It is not hard to drown in your helmet if you're unconscious.



While much of the armor depicted in Peter Jackson's LotR films is quite practical, the armor of the Elves in the Last Alliance is *not* and I have no desire to copy it in any way - that is strictly 'fantasy' armor that is meant to look cool.

A question on the LOTR elvish armor, because I've looked at it fairly carefully. It looks like it would certainly be difficult to make with the criss-crossing metal bands. It leaves the throat open to attack, as well as the armpits, but that's typical of just about any armor in the LOTR films. The overly ornate helmets, which I mentioned earlier, would be rather top-heavy and thus strain the neck muscles. All of that said, I don't really see how the armor is any less practical than any other armor in the films, barring the helmet, which I mentioned earlier.



I suppose that we don't see a lot of leg armor on them, but given the robe or skirt that goes down from the chest piece, it wouldn't be difficult to assume they wear armor under that.

Now, you could make the case that human historical armor just isn't made with the whole criss-crossing band design, and you would certainly be right. Once again, I'd have to chalk it up to elves having access to materials and processes that our ancestors did not have access to. I'm not suggesting that we copy the armor, I just don't see why it would be considered impractical. More so than any other armor, like Theoden's for example, which leaves the edges of the chest and the throat exposed.

 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I'm pretty sure that the criss-cross design is more vulnerable when you move around in it. This wasn't my own evaluation, but came from a talk by this guy:



Since Michael Cook makes all his own armor [hardened leather and chainmail, mostly], he has both practical experience and research backing up his evaluation. Not saying he's necessarily....right....but I'd be very hesitant to go with the 'fantasy' aspects of the FotR Prologue Last Alliance elf armor design. Of course, I might not be remembering the content of his complaint correctly (this talk was from Sept. 27, 2008), but I do recall a lot of references to dead elves. For the most part, he did not have such disparaging things to say about the other armor in the film.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
As an aficionado of weapons, armor, and related subjects, I'm very curious about this. I'll look into it. To be honest, there are plenty of artistic reasons not to copy what they did in the Jackson films, but I'd mention that John Howe also has a pretty fair working knowledge of armor, as does Warren Ormsby-Green, who was the armorer on their project.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I have some disturbing news.... I was reading ahead and discovered that Tolkien specifically credits the dwarves with the invention of chain mail...

Now, we could use some form of scale mail for the pre-exile Noldor, even though it wasn't very common historically.
 

Halstein

Active Member
I have some disturbing news.... I was reading ahead and discovered that Tolkien specifically credits the dwarves with the invention of chain mail...

Now, we could use some form of scale mail for the pre-exile Noldor, even though it wasn't very common historically.
Lamellar would also be good:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_armour

It can be made out of non-metallic materials, like leather, horn, bone etc.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Tolkien also mentions "Fishmail" at some point...
http://www.councilofelrond.com/weapon/arms-armour-in-jrr-tolkiens-middle-earth/

I like to think that this kind of Armor could have been inspired by Ulmos look with wave-crested helmet and mail armour of silver and emerald.

I once did some research about Elvish Armour and what I could find was that for the most part they seem to have worn fine chainmail, with a few possible allisuions to splint- or scalemail or the above mentioned fish#s mail, of which i think as exceptionally fine and gracefully built scale armour or maybe
something like japanese Gyorin Kozane fish-scale Armor.


Noldor wear High-Helmets... I don#t exactly know what that means, If i look at helmets in Smaugs Hoard i see Conical Helmets, High helmet could refer to anything, from Bronze-Age types:

https://de.pinterest.com/pin/479985272768740067/


https://de.pinterest.com/pin/332773859946278157/


https://de.pinterest.com/pin/371758144223112677/


http://p4.storage.canalblog.com/42/27/119589/106771019_o.jpg

Some Helmets have feathered crests, Plumes or "Spikes" attached to them.

to later Spangenhelm-Types:


https://www.battlemerchant.com/images/product_images/popup_images/1716384200_spangenhelm_helmet_mittelalter.jpg


http://www.mittelalter.net/bilder/germanischer-spangenhelm---09089.jpg
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
However I remember that Tolkien#s draft for the crown of Gondor, which was said to be based on a númenorean War-Helmet was inspired by the egyptian Hedjet-crown
https://discoveringegypt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/doubleCrown.png

http://i.stack.imgur.com/bDnmO.png

I also wonder if the numenorean Karma Helmet Model drawn by Tolkien maybe was based on an earlier elvish design:
http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Hogweed/media/karma.jpg.html

I recall Ulmo#s "foam-crested Helm" which might have been the inspiration for trhe Karma Design.
I could quite imagine Falmari and Falathrim Warriors wearing foam-crested Karma-Style helmets.

I also recall some of the Guards of Gondolin wearing black Eagle-Mask helmets, though i can't imagine how they would have looked like...
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Apparently I replied to a thread that died and was replaced .... sorry. Um, not sure I can delete this.

Pet peave: please don't use anachronicstic the word chainmail. Please just call it mail.

I'm enjoying these videos, especially The Metatron's channel.

I think it would make sense for Noldor to make the most advanced armor possible... However the post-Nirnaeth hosts of Gondolin, Gelmir and Arminas, and High King Gil-Galad, are all described wearing mail. Also I would expect equal craftsmanship from Dwarves, but even in the Third Age they go in for mail (admittedly, sometimes mithril mail) so apparently superhuman master artisans can make mail better than anything historical. So to be true to what Tolkien wrote you could, at most, combine mail with vambraces + greaves (+ maybe chest) of plate.

If Dwarves invented mail then Sindar would have it, while the early Noldor could start with scale, later perhaps moving to mail. Or does the way Tolkien phrases the invention of mail rule out the Noldor inventing it independently? Anyway scale looks pretty cool, and you could do a leaf-motif about as well as Romans supposedly did "feather"-motif scale.

EDIT: "Mail of linked rings" was first invented at Belegost, but the phrasing doesn't appear to rule out Noldor inventing it independently in Valinor, at a later date.
Also, Ulmo's armor is "close-fitted as the mail of a mighty fish" (called "mail" but clearly scales in the Lost Tale) and Thingol has in his armories "metal wrought like fishes' mail". Elsewhere though, "mail" seems to refer to actual mail, not scale armor.

I do think it's important, as Marielle said, to consider why each type of armor was invented: and not only for the fighting style it was for, but the enemy technology it was made to counter. Some armor developments that are considered prototypical 'medieval' were responses to crossbows and picks and warhammers, and such. (Not to guns, my mistake.)

Concealed armor (such as brigandine) was made for stealth (I think) and isn't consistent with Elves or Edain going out with shining armor and showing themselves openly. It could work for the archers of Nargothrond who go in camouflage, but perhaps they can put a surcoat over mail or scale to get a similar effect.

I think it would be good to avoid the specific looks of very specific distinctive armor styles (Samurai lamellar 'plates', European fullplate, Greco-Roman phalanx panoply, Roman lorica segmentata) unless there's a plausible path for Elves, Dwarves, or Mortals to independently arrive at the exact same style. Also, I dislike the overlapping criss-cross armor in PJ's movies. I don't even have a rational reason, it just looks stupid to me.


Regarding Gondolin: I don't interpret their elaborate organization and armor as unique to the Hidden City, but an example of how all Noldor did war, probably by the time of the Fourth Battle. Not just the organization of units and the quality of armor, but putting them in color-coordinated armor studded with gems, plated in gold or silver or copper or mithril, and decorated as works of art, just because it's beautiful. They use this for color and heraldic distinction, instead of the European surcoat.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Tolkien himself seems to use the term mail in anachronistic way. There are quite a few examples where he writes mail but actually seems to mean scale. He never mentions actual plate though he does mention thingol wearing a corslet in addition to mail.

The orcs wear scale and ring armour, though i believe tolkien really intends mail by ring.

Lamellar and splint armour definitely should be options too.

The main difference i see between the description of the early feanorian warriors ( white& gold , feather credted helms, shield, spear, bow) and the gondolindrim is that the feanorians are described as more uniform. The gondolindrim are orginised by their houses/ guilds with more variety in weapons, armor & coat of arms...

I suggest this was a latter developement as many gondolindrim seem to have been of sinda descent and so their people was more mixed, also in terms if military irganisation.

But i agree... Their beautiful jewel& gem applied armor is their idea of very individualised coat of arms. Tolkiens drawings of elvish sigils should give us an idea of how that may have looked like
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I have collected quotes on Armour from thoughout the HoME:


Upon a time the king caused his
most cunning artificers to fashion a suit of armour for Tuor as a
great gift, and it was made of Gnome-steel overlaid with silver;
but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to
two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought
on his shield; but he carried an axe rather than a sword, and this in
the speech of the Gondothlim he named Dramborleg, for its
buffet stunned and its edge clove all armour.
Then Glorfindel leapt forward
upon him and his golden armour gleamed strangely in the moon,
and he hewed at that demon that it leapt again upon a great
boulder and Glorfindel after.
The Balrogs are 'demons of power'
(p. 181); they are capable of pain and fear (p. 194); they are attired in
iron armour
There Thingol sat. His crown he wore
of green and silver, and round his chair 1010
a host in gleaming armour fair.
Beneath them ranged with spear and sword
stood Morgoth's sable-armoured horde
the earth was glad of the
coming of the Gnomes, nor had the sun or the white moon
yet seen fairer things in those places than their moving field
of glinting spears and their goldwrought elfin armoury.
(Earendil)
in silver rings they armoured him;
his shield they writ with elven-runes,
that never wound did harm to him.
His bow was made of dragon-horn,
his arrows shorn of ebony,
of woven steel his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony. 56
His sword was hewn of adamant,
and valiant the might of it;
his helm a shining emerald,
and terrible the light of it.
panoply: suit of armour.
(Easterlings)
men in strange
armour riding also from East to Eodoras.
the sons of Elrond are
described in the same words as in RK, and their armour of bright mail
cloaked in silver-grey
Thingol's armouries were stored with axes (the chief weapons of
the Naugrim, and of the Sindar), and with spears and swords,
and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail: for the hauberks
of the Enfeng were so fashioned that they rusted not and shone
ever as were they new-burnished.
Turin found in the armouries of Nargothrond 'a dwarf-mask all
gilded', and wore it into battle.
(Tol Eressea)
Green was their armour, green their helms,
Turin, who trusted to targe and sword,
who was fain of fighting with foes well seen,
where shining swords made sheen of fire,
and his corslet-clad comrades-in-arms
were snared seldom and smote unlooked-for.
(Thingol)
metal wrought like fishes' mail,
buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
and gleaming spears
(Ulmo)
robed to the middle in mail like the
scales of blue and silver fishes
(Orcs)
unerring their arrows; the icy steel
of their curved blades cleaves unblunted
the meshes of mail;
(Nargothrond 12)
robed in mail of cunning rings
now blackened dark with helmets grey 1930
and sombre cloaks
Beren did Curufin release;
but took his horse and coat of mail,
and took his knife there gleaming pale,
Fingolfin gleamed beneath it like a star; for his
mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with
crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil,
he put on the helm of Gumlin, and taking mail
and sword and shield
gondolin:
Now this great work
was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the
quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and
axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail,
byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields.
But in that ancient . ':
time the Dwarves still wrought iron and copper rather than
silver and gold; and the making of weapons and gear of war was
their chief smith-craft. They it was that first devised mail of
linked rings, and in the making of byrnies and of hauberks none
among Elves or Men have proved their equals.

Black-mailed orc
orc-chief, almost
man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot,
At its foot stood three tall elves. They were clad in
grey mail and from their shoulders hung long white cloaks.
Swiftly they stripped the orc, peeling off his coat of
black scale-like mail,
(Eowyn)
there a
man brought out to her a small helm and a coat of mail and a
shield like to the one that had been given to Gimli. No mail we
had to fit you nor time to forge a hauberk for you,'( she said,
'but here is a short jerkin of leather and a shield and a [?short]
spear.
Denethor, revealing the mail in which he was
clad beneath his long cloak
(Aragorn)
clad only in a grey mantle above his mail and bearing no
other token save the green stone of Galadriel,
with him went an esquire, no more than a
small lad he seemed, though clad in the silver and sable of the
king's guard, and to the wonder of Frodo and Sam they bore the
sword and the elven-cloak and the mithril-coat that had been
taken from them; and for Sam they brought a coat of gilded
mail, and on Frodo's right hand upon the middle (9) and little
fingers they set small rings of mithril set each with a gem like a
star.
Aragorn's black mail and white mantle
Turgon that issued from Gondolin, ten thousand
strong, with bright mail and long swords
Turgon had opened the leaguer
of Gondolin, and was come with an army, ten thousand strong,
with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest
he was the last king
Of the Eldar in Middle-earth, and the last male descendant of
Finwe except Elrond the Half-elven. The epesse was given to
him because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with
silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like
a star in sunlight or moonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes
at a great distance if he stood upon a height.
Upon those shores Falman-Osse met them and drew them
across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering
mail;
Turin denied the entrance of Galweg's dwelling to
them, and they fell thick about him, until a company of their
archers standing at a distance shot a cloud of arrows at him. Now
he wore chainmail such as all the warriors of the Gnomes have ever
loved and still do wear, yet it turned not all those ill shafts, and
alreadywas he sore hurt when Flinding fell pierced
gondolin:
Now this great work
was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the
quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and
axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail,
byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields.
Beren born:
he laughed at dart and wailing horn;
fleetest of foot of living men,
tireless on fell and light on fen,
elf-wise in wood, he passed away,
defended by his hauberk grey
of dwarvish craft in Nogrod made,
dwarves:
They it was that first devised mail of
linked rings, and in the making of byrnies and of hauberks none
among Elves or Men have proved their equals
tuor:
his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to
two swan-wings
all these wore wings as it were of swans
or gulls upon their helms, and the emblem of the White Wing was
upon their shields
the folk of the Swallow bore a
fan of feathers on their helms, and theywere arrayed in white and
dark blue and in purple and black and showed an arrowhead on
their shields.
Every shield of that battalion was of the
blue of the heavens and its boss a jewel built of seven gems, rubies
and amethysts and sapphires, emeralds, chrysoprase, topaz, and
amber, but an opal of great size was set in their helms.
There Tuor slew Othrod a
lord of the Orcs cleaving his helm
Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli, full at
Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike
upon it he drave into that evil breast,
The
ardour of Glorfindel drave that Balrog from point to point, and his
mail fended him from its whip and claw. Now had he beaten a
heavy swinge upon its iron helm, now hewn off the creature's
whip-arm at the elbow.
Agolden crown theymade for Tinwelint, who yet had worn
nought but a wreath of scarlet leaves, and a helm too most glorious
they fashioned; and a sword of dwarven steel brought from afar
was hilted with bright gold and damascened in gold and silver with
strange figurings wherein was pictured clear the wolf-hunt of
Karkaras Knife-fang, father of wolves.
now Tinwelint the king rode forth a-hunting, and more
glorious was his array than ever aforetime, and the helm of gold
was above his flowing locks, and with gold were the trappings of
his steed adorned;
Thalion in the hosts of war
was whelmed, what time the white-clad armies
of Elfinesse were all to ruin
Hurin Thalion in the hosts of battle
was whelmed in war, when the white banners
of the ruined king were rent with spears,
in blood beaten; when the blazing helm
of Finweg fell in flame of swords,
and his gleaming armies' gold and silver
shields were shaken,
Felagund took off his crown
and at his feet he cast it down,
the silver helm of Nargothrond:
Fingolfin proudly led
his silver armies on the green,
his horses white, his lances keen;
his helmets tall of steel were hewn,
his shields were shining as the moon.
There trumpets sang both long and loud,
Nazgul:
three tall figures: in
their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their
black mantles were long grey robes, upon their grey hair were
helms of silver
But when Feanor got wind of what was being done, he
made for himself a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was
aware; and there he wrought fell swords of tempered steel for
himself and for his seven sons, and tall helms with plumes of
red.
Feanor appeared, and
he strode into the chamber tall and threatening. A fire of anger
was in his eyes, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his
head, and at his side a mighty sword.
Fingolfin, King of the Noldor, beheld (as him
seemed) the utter ruin of his people, and the defeat beyond
redress of all their houses, and he was filled with wrath and
despair. Therefore he did on his silver arms, and took his white
helm, and his sword Ringil, and his blue shield set with a star of
crystal, and mounting upon Rochallor
ambalotse uprising-flower - referring
to the flower or floreate device used as a crest fixed to point of a tall
... helmet
the folk of the Swallow bore a
fan of feathers on their helms, and theywere arrayed in white and
dark blue and in purple and black and showed an arrowhead on
their shields. Their lord was Duilin,
Every shield of that battalion was of the
blue of the heavens and its boss a jewel built of seven gems, rubies
and amethysts and sapphires, emeralds, chrysoprase, topaz, and
amber, but an opal of great size was set in their helms. Egalmoth
was their chieftain,
There
stood the house of the Golden Flower who bare a rayed sun upon
their shield, and their chief Glorfindel bare a mantle so broidered
in threads of gold thathis arms were damascened with cunning gold.
They fought with great maces like hammers,
and their shields were heavy, for their arms were very strong. In
older days they had been much recruited byNoldoli who escaped
from the mines of Melko, and the hatred of this house for the
works of that evil one and the Balrogs his demons was exceeding
great. Now their leader was Rog, strongest of the Gnomes
Anvil, and a hammer that smiteth sparks
about it was set on their shields, and red gold and black iron
was their delight.
were of swans
or gulls upon their helms, and the emblem of the White Wing was
upon their shields.
Now the folk of the Swallow bore a
fan of feathers on their helms, and theywere arrayed in white and
dark blue and in purple and black and showed an arrowhead on
their shields. Their lord was Duilin,
Every shield of that battalion was of the
blue of the heavens and its boss a jewel built of seven gems, rubies
and amethysts and sapphires, emeralds, chrysoprase, topaz, and
amber, but an opal of great size was set in their helms. Egalmoth
was their chieftain,
Finweg fell in flame of swords,
and his gleaming armies' gold and silver
shields were
Barahir,
who sheltered him with shield and spear
Thus Turin, who trusted to targe and sword, 785
who was fain of fighting with foes well seen,
where shining swords made sheen of fire,
and his corslet-clad comrades-in-arms
were snared seldom and smote unlooked-for.
Bilbo's corslet of mithril-rings
tolmen 'boss (of shield),
casque helmet,
Morion, helmet
web woven fabric, L 1471l; used of ring-mail
byrnie body-armour, corslet, coat-of-mail,
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Pet peave: please don't use anachronicstic the word chainmail. Please just call it mail.
I get it. It's a hard habit to break from RPG days. The use of the word "chainmail" goes back, as near as I can tell, to the early 19th century, as did many Victorianisms about the medieval period. That is also when people began to believe that plate armor was heavy and useless, and many began to use the words "mail" and "armor" interchangeably.

Tolkien falls into this trap as well, at least to a degree, as both you and Haerengil later point out. There is strong evidence that he uses the word "mail" to describe scale armor, and I am not as convinced as some that he does not also occasionally mean plate armor.

I do think it's important, as Marielle said, to consider why each type of armor was invented: and not only for the fighting style it was for, but the enemy technology it was made to counter. Some armor developments that are considered prototypical 'medieval' were responses to guns or crossbows, but even Third Age Orcs, who use bombards and fixed explosives, don't have guns. Also (oddly, since they have fireworks) nobody seems to have rockets in the Third Age.

I certainly agree with this. This was more or less the point behind the thread where I have tried to consolidate all of these discussions rather than discussing individual armor and weapons in a vacuum. Armor and weapons evolve as part of an arms race, which I want to illustrate as we progress. As much as we can without engaging in anachronism, anyway.

Concealed armor (such as brigandine) was made for stealth (I think) and isn't consistent with Elves or Edain going out with shining armor and showing themselves openly. It could work for the archers of Nargothrond who go in camouflage, but perhaps they can put a surcoat over mail or
I have not heard this before. Brigandine was generally worn by soldiers of various European nations. I'm not sure what kind of stealth advantage it might have other than not being as reflective. I'd be interested to see any info you have on this, though.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Tolkien falls into this trap as well, at least to a degree, as both you and Haerengil later point out. There is strong evidence that he uses the word "mail" to describe scale armor, and I am not as convinced as some that he does not also occasionally mean plate armor.
Indeed it's hard to imagine mail overlaid with silver , and a mail corslet in addition to mail doesnt make much sense. I suggest in both cases he does mean at least some sort of breastplate or thorax or maybe plated mail. At one time he uses the term panoply...

Brigantines are 14th century... That does seem a bit late for my understanding.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Yeah, sorry again for replying to the wrong thread -- I was going to edit and move my reply to the other thread once I read it all. I'm glad somebody saw my reply anyway. I replied to the other thread now -- mostly about arms race, weapons, and chariots -- so we can continue there.

I'm wrong about brigandine. I probably got that from the older (3rd ed) GURPS books, which aren't very accurate about armor. The new and better researched (4th ed) Low Tech agrees brigandine was rarely concealed.

Thank you for the pile of quotes Haerangil! (The later HoME volumes repeat the helms and mail and "metal rought like fishes' scales" but don't mention corslets again.) Tolkien does use "corslet" for the mithril mail, but you're right that when somebody has both corslet and mail the corslet must surely be a piece of plate. (Though none of the quotes says Thingol wore one over mail, but that he had corslets "laid in hoard".) In any case, the word is a decent excuse for Noldor and Dwarves to smith breastplates.

So, at most breastplate, greaves, and vambraces, overlaid on mail or scale hauberks. Chinese mountain scale would also make sense, with the pretty star pattern and extra resistance to blunt force. Not full suits of plate armor, though. Mail is sometimes silvered, gilded, or copper/bronze (or mithril?) plated. Is it plausible for Dwarves and Noldor to have some way to [chemically] plate mail rings, or should this be interpreted as scales? Some mail is also blackened but that apparently can be done with smoke.

Helms are mentioned over and over, but not coifs. So the mail may all be coifless, like Roman lorica hamata (and Mughal mail?). Noldor and Dwarves at least wear helms: Noldor seemingly with faces exposed, but Dwarves with visors that can be opened.

I don't know about lamellar, other than for a breastplate. But a coat-of-plates (lamellar concealed/sewn under a surcoat), brigandines, and jazeraint are so not a Noldorin style. Not shiny enough!

Third Age? Orcs also seem to have iron shoes, = sollerets. That may be Third Age only, though.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I imagine Angband as an early high-culture... I believe everything later Ages could at most be a try to re-reach that high point.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Question:

I suppose the sindar armour is heavily dwarf- inspired.

They use axes and knives instead of long swords and fslchions ( at first) and they are the first elves to adapt mail ( chain). I do suggest they also wore helmets more similar to naugrim types than to noldrian high crested/ spiked helmets... More flat or round maybe? Visors nor not? I guess some elite warriors may have worn masks/ visored helmets..
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member


Well, the helmets on the right are early versions of the Sollet helmet types. The Sollet feels like a good dwarvish design. It has excellent protection, and is typically visored as well.
 
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