Frame Narrative

The obvious person Arwen would want to speak to in Tol Eressëa is her mother Celebrían. It is one way to bring Celebrían into the frame not in flashback. Of course, the Tower Hills are nowhere near Lothlorien, so that's a long trip to make. If the elf going to the Havens in the frame is going 'in real time', Arwen could decide to accompany her to the Havens, and thus have adventures all across Middle Earth rather than be cooped up in Lothlorien.

We would lose Celeborn if we did it this way; he'd be in the first (say) 3 episodes, and then after Arwen returns to Lothlorien towards the end of the Season. So, if the goal was to have Celeborn a consistent character throughout all 13 frame episodes....no go. But we've mostly been focusing on Arwen as the primary character anyway, so that might not be a problem. The twins could insist on accompanying her as 'escort' and thus we could see that they haven't quite gotten over losing their mother, either.

There are definite reasons to consider using the palantir at Elostirion.
 
MithLuin said:
The obvious person Arwen would want to speak to in Tol Eressëa is her mother Celebrían. It is one way to bring Celebrían into the frame not in flashback. Of course, the Tower Hills are nowhere near Lothlorien, so that's a long trip to make. If the elf going to the Havens in the frame is going 'in real time', Arwen could decide to accompany her to the Havens, and thus have adventures all across Middle Earth rather than be cooped up in Lothlorien.

We would lose Celeborn if we did it this way; he'd be in the first (say) 3 episodes, and then after Arwen returns to Lothlorien towards the end of the Season. So, if the goal was to have Celeborn a consistent character throughout all 13 frame episodes....no go. But we've mostly been focusing on Arwen as the primary character anyway, so that might not be a problem. The twins could insist on accompanying her as 'escort' and thus we could see that they haven't quite gotten over losing their mother, either.

There are definite reasons to consider using the palantir at Elostirion.
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Since we lose sight of the Moriquendi after episode 6, I think that losing Celeborn for a bit is survivable. I really think taking our frame show on the road for a bit is a good move. We could even pass through the Shire if the fit took us.
 
I wrote a whole thing about how I'd rather wait to use the seeing stones in season three, but it got muddy and now I'm not sure how I feel.

Have I got my timeline mixed up? Is Sauron not the necromancer by now? Does he not have a palantir? If so, I feel like the elves would fear to use it?
 
ouzaru said:
I wrote a whole thing about how I'd rather wait to use the seeing stones in season three, but it got muddy and now I'm not sure how I feel.

Have I got my timeline mixed up? Is Sauron not the necromancer by now? Does he not have a palantir? If so, I feel like the elves would fear to use it?
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The elves certainly would be very careful about the stones, if they got their hands on any other of the palantiri, but if, as has been stated earlier, that the stone in Tower Hills is "tuned" only to one on the other side of the sea, I think they could safely do so. Sauron as "The Necromancer" has already been driven out of Dol Goldur by this point, and taken up residence in Mordor. He likely has access to his palantir, but perhaps not the "juice" to do too much to the elves.
 
We know that the Wandering Companies of Noldor (aka Gildor Inglorion) travel through the Shire to get to the Tower Hills to visit this stone. So, it is definitely in use at this time, and fear of Sauron is not stopping anyone from using it.

That being said, I feel we should only use it with strong reason (like the Mirror, it has implications that have to be carefully considered).
 
MithLuin said:
We know that the Wandering Companies of Noldor (aka Gildor Inglorion) travel through the Shire to get to the Tower Hills to visit this stone. So, it is definitely in use at this time, and fear of Sauron is not stopping anyone from using it.

That being said, I feel we should only use it with strong reason (like the Mirror, it has implications that have to be carefully considered).
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Agreed. I do feel that any excuse to get us out of the "bottle" that is Lothlorien is a good thing, but we'll need to think something like this through very carefully.
 
So, if Arwen is making her 'self-discovery tour', it makes sense that Elladan and Elrohir would travel with her. Both for their own self-discovery and to protect Arwen. But, if they are traveling to the Tower Hills, we could also have Celeborn traveling with (if we want to keep him involved in the entire frame) to meet his old friend Cirdan. They haven't seen each other in ages (literally), so it would make sense that given the opportunity he would make that journey too.

I agree that if we are keeping the frames locked into one location, we run the risk of becoming a Book of Lost Tales just with familiar characters instead of Eriol/AElfwine. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but if that's the goal, then let's be true to that. If our goal in the frames is a more dynamic opportunity to showcase familiar characters and their actions against the backdrop of the Elder Days and show parallels and contrasts, then we need to be inventive. But, we can't let the frame 'overtop' the main story. The way I think about it is that the frame will be 10-15 percent of the episode while the 'main' story occupies the other 85-90 percent. That's not a lot of time to develop a cohesive, dynamic story.
 
Ray Burns said:
So, if Arwen is making her 'self-discovery tour', it makes sense that Elladan and Elrohir would travel with her. Both for their own self-discovery and to protect Arwen. But, if they are traveling to the Tower Hills, we could also have Celeborn traveling with (if we want to keep him involved in the entire frame) to meet his old friend Cirdan. They haven't seen each other in ages (literally), so it would make sense that given the opportunity he would make that journey too.

I agree that if we are keeping the frames locked into one location, we run the risk of becoming a Book of Lost Tales just with familiar characters instead of Eriol/AElfwine. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but if that's the goal, then let's be true to that. If our goal in the frames is a more dynamic opportunity to showcase familiar characters and their actions against the backdrop of the Elder Days and show parallels and contrasts, then we need to be inventive. But, we can't let the frame 'overtop' the main story. The way I think about it is that the frame will be 10-15 percent of the episode while the 'main' story occupies the other 85-90 percent. That's not a lot of time to develop a cohesive, dynamic story.
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I agree that the frame has a delicate balancing act to do. What I want to make sure of is that it is integral to our story, not just something we tack on.
 
We'd lose Galadriel to the same extent as we'd lose Celeborn, right? I guess we could solve that by using flashbacks... but we could also use the telepathic communication we discussed in the palantiri thread.
 
Okay - an attempt to integrate some serious travel into this Frame. Please, comment on any suggestions for improvement!

Episode 1 (Awakening of the Elves) - Arwen remembers her mother being captured by orcs, and talks to Celeborn who tells her that fear and loss was always there, from the beginning. They discuss making decisions in the face of fear. Arwen is sad, but it is not explained why.

Episode 2 (The Ambassadors) - Arwen greets Galadriel for a festival of the stars in Lothlorien, but the festival is different from the one Arwen remembers from Rivendell - there is no reference to Elbereth in the songs of the elves of Lorien. Arwen discusses her surprise with Celeborn and Galadriel. Arwen's friend and companion is introduced, and she and Arwen spend time together during the festival.

Episode 3 (The Great Debate) - It is revealed that Arwen's friend has decided to leave Middle Earth. Arwen and her friend discuss the friend's reasons for leaving at this time, with mention of the safe roads that have opened up to the West. Arwen is heartbroken to leave her friend, and offers to travel with her (save this decision for later?).

Episode 4 (Teleri Migration Episode) - Arwen looks into the Mirror of Galadriel and witnesses the rescue of her mother by her brothers. She tells Celeborn that the knowledge doesn't help as much as she thought it would. Preparations are made for those elves leaving Lothlorien forever. The festival has now extended to a farewell.

Episode 5 (Círdan and Olwë; Arrival of Noldor/Vanyar in Valinor)- Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir come to visit, and they insist upon accompanying their sister on her journey. They mention the dangers that still lurk in the Wild, with specific reference to the Men of Anduin who have reported a monster stealing food and babies. Arwen insists on helping those who are afflicted.

Episode 6 (Elvenhome) - On their journey, Arwen and her brothers discuss Celebrían's lingering sickness and decision to depart Middle Earth (in parallel to Míriel fading after the birth of Fëanor). Flashback of Elrond treating the wounded Celebrían in Rivendell. (*something something real time of interest on the journey* = crossing the Misty Mountains?)

Episode 7 (Spirit of Fire) - Journey through Eregion. Talk of loss and destruction from the last time Sauron was there; why the elves flee to the West. It is revealed that Celebrían did not die, but decided to go into the West.

Episode 8 (Trial of Melkor) - The land of the Shire. Everything seems happy and peaceful here - Arwen asks her friend if she's content to leave this all behind. Changefulness of mortal lands.

Episode 9 (The Silmarils) - The palantir in the Tower Hills. Arwen looks into it, in hopes of glimpsing the current home of her mother on Tol Eressëa. Conversation between Celebrían, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen?

Episode 10 (Kinstrife) - Arrival at the Grey Havens. Arwen meets Círdan, and it is remarked that this is her first view of the Sea. Farewell to the elves from Lothlorien who are boarding a ship, including Arwen's friend.

Episode 11 (Banishment) - Return journey with a much smaller entourage. Arwen is sad to have said goodbye, but is glad her brothers are with her on this journey home. Another glimpse into the palantir of the ship taking the Straight Path??

Episode 12 (Feast) - Return to Lothlorien for another celebration - the land of Lorien is unchanged, despite the loss of some of the elves who lived there. Arwen decides that keeping her friend's memory will have to be enough for her, because she plans to stay in Middle Earth for a long time.

Episode 13 (Darkening of Valinor) - No idea. Some sort of wrap up with Celeborn and Galadriel.
 
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Haakon said:
We'd lose Galadriel to the same extent as we'd lose Celeborn, right? I guess we could solve that by using flashbacks... but we could also use the telepathic communication we discussed in the palantiri thread.
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I think we'd just lose them. I've got them in the first 5 episodes and the last two, so they're only 'sitting out' 6 episodes of the journey. Is that bad?
 
MithLuin said:
I think we'd just lose them. I've got them in the first 5 episodes and the last two, so they're only 'sitting out' 6 episodes of the journey. Is that bad?
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I don't have a problem with that.

Edit: And I really love meeting Cirdan, who we last saw in episode 5.
 
I see one of the challenges of this Frame being that we need to introduce the 'elvishness' of elves, but all of our characters are elves, so it's just 'normal life' to them. I think that journeying through changeful mortal lands can help to bring out some of the contrasts, as to why Middle Earth isn't so comfortable to them. We aren't going to discuss the Rings of Elrond and Galadriel, I wouldn't think, but we can remark on the 'unchanging' nature of those elvish lands.
 
We will have the opportunity to introduce the difference between Lothlorien and more normal lands in Middle-earth. Also, if the elves are traveling through Eriador, we can show how they relate to humans and hobbits and their settlements.
 
My outline was a tentative first pass, I should point out - any suggestions of what could be happening or how to pace the 'journey to the Grey Havens' is welcome. It would be awesome if we could have an outline in place before Saturday to give us a starting point, but I welcome completely alternative suggestions that have nothing to do with this.
 
Right.

As I touched on before, I think the party of elves should avoid contact with humans and hobbits. But perhaps they could meet someone. Could they meet Bilbo?

If they are going to the Havens, I think we have to let Arwen face the Sea and feel its calling. Let's make her decision to stay a bit more difficult.
 
Would Bilbo be alive yet during the time of the frame?

If not Bilbo, perhaps one of the ancestors of Bilbo (on the Took side of course) who after meeting the Elves suddenly yearns to see what's on the blank spaces on the maps and begins the 'adventurous' strain within certain Hobbit families.
 
This frame takes place immediately after the events of the Hobbit - a year or so after the Battle of Five Armies. That is why the Necromancer has been identified as Sauron and ejected from Dol Guldor.

So, yes, Bilbo has returned to the Shire and is a 'young' hobbit in his 50's ;)

There is also a strong chance we will use Bilbo in the Shire for the Season 4 frame; Bilbo appeared in 2 episodes of the Season 1 frame already.
 
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