Gildor's Aid

[zedturtle]

Hey, so I'm finally (after catching up over the last week or three) actually listening to something in near-realtime, so I can actually participate...

I really appreciated the discussion about Gildor's assistance, and I think there's a few more things that might be considered:

When Gildor takes the hobbits with him, he places them into the middle of the group, ostensibly so that they can be propped up if they start to get weary. It also happens that such a location would be tactically ideal if you were thinking that your group might soon be attacked by "nine 5,000 year-old mummy warlocks" (love that description) and wanting the non-combatants to be in a safe place.

We don't know what Gildor does after he leaves the hobbits (other than send out his messages). We do know that's a Noldo and presumably looks like a brilliant white light on the other side. Thus, staying with Frodo and company would be putting a tracking device on them {I'm just waiting to point out the same concern when we get to talk about why Glorfindel doesn't go with the Company of the Ring}. But perhaps he and his crew spread out, trying to confuse and delay the Ringwraiths, in order to increase Frodo's chances of slipping away.

 

[Tungol]

We do know that's a Noldo and presumably looks like a brilliant white light on the other side. Thus, staying with Frodo and company would be putting a tracking device on them {I'm just wanting to point out the same concern when we get to talk about why Glorfindel doesn't go with the Company of the Ring}. But perhaps he and his crew spread out, trying to confuse and delay the Ringwraiths, in order to increase Frodo's chances of slipping away.

That's something I hadn't considered before. Do the Ringwraiths have such a good sense of which elves are Noldo or not though?

 

[zedturtle]

To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil.

- - -

"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the First-born."

- - -

The first is Glorfindel approaching Frodo when he's under the effect of the Morgul shard (and thus undergoing wraithification), and the second clipping is from Gandalf and Frodo talking about that scene later in Rivendell.

I don't mean to insinuate that the Ringwraiths could sense Gildor (or Glorfindel) from massive distances, but I'm sure that they'd stand out against the background noise of all the mortals that are probably very faint and fuzzy on the other side.

 

[MithLuin]

That would be true if Gildor were a Noldo who had ever lived in Valinor. We do not know whether he is an exile from the original batch or if he was born in Middle Earth, though - either scenario could be true. Very few exiled Noldor survived the entire First Age, though, so it is more likely that he was born in Middle Earth.

When Tolkien wrote the passage, 'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod' was very specific - in published Silmarillion terms, he was identifying himself as 'Gildor (Starlord), son of Finrod, of the House of Finarfin.' Of course, Finrod later turned out to be childless, and now we don't know who Inglor is meant to be. The names didn't change, but their meanings did, and so Gildor is just some unidentified Noldo. We could tentatively identify him as a survivor of Nargothrond, at a guess.

 

[Tungol]

When Tolkien wrote the passage, 'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod' was very specific - in published Silmarillion terms, he was identifying himself as 'Gildor (Starlord), son of Finrod, of the House of Finarfin.' Of course, Finrod later turned out to be childless, and now we don't know who Inglor is meant to be. The names didn't change, but their meanings did, and so Gildor is just some unidentified Noldo. We could tentatively identify him as a survivor of Nargothrond, at a guess.

It's a bit more complicated than this, because at the time LOTR was written, Finarfin's name was Finrod, and Finrod Felagund's name was Inglor Felagund. Tolkien updated Finrod to Finarfin in some places in LOTR, but he didn't change the reference to the 'House of Finrod' in Chapter 3. See this article for details.

The article gives three plausible scenarios for Gildor's true ancestry. The two I think are most plausible is that he's either Finrod Felagund's descendant (through an elf named Inglor) or that he's from an unrelated Noldorin family that happened to have an elf prince named Finrod as the head. In either of these cases he probably wouldn't have been born in Valinor.

The only likely way for him to be born in Valinor is if he's Finrod Felagund's son from before exile. But this doesn't seem right because it would usurp Gil-Galad from being the last male descendant of Finwë.

 

[NotACat]

The only likely way for him to be born in Valinor is if he's Finrod Felagund's son from before exile. But this doesn't seem right because it would usurp Gil-Galad from being the last male descendant of Finwë.

Also, wasn't quite a point made of Finrod not marrying in Middle-earth because he'd left his fiancée Amarië behind in Valinor…and we know that Finrod has been rebodied and reunited with her because he's used as an example of that process.

I understand that it would be unlikely that Finrod and Amarië would have a child before marrying, and even more unlikely—to the point of absurdity even—that he would have a child with anyone else, which pretty much counts out the "likely way" suggested above.

 

[zedturtle]

Of course, it's impossible to say, since we don't have a clear line of descent for Gildor. But considering that they (and presumably he) were just singing about remembering the starlight on the Western Sea then there's at least a chance that he's been to Valinor.

Also, I don't believe that there's every given (and this is a part that I'm shakier on, so happy to see correction) a complete understanding of how these things function. For example, we're pretty sure that the Ring takes a mortal out of the living world (mostly, leaving only a thin and wavering shadow at most) and puts him into the spirit world. In the spirit world, the Ringwraiths are clearly visible, along with their accoutrements. The weapons glow faintly with power (well, 'a pale light'). But even while wearing the Ring, Frodo can still see Aragorn and his torches, even though it seems all the rest is a misty darkness.

That, and the fact that he sees Glorfindel's spiritual presence even without the aid of the Ring (but still slipping towards the spirit world due to the wraithification process), gives me at least the hint that everyone has some sort of presence in the spirit world. An ordinary Hobbit probably has a very minimal presence (no more than a thin and wavering shadow, I imagine) but folks of higher stature seem to have more of a presence (e.g. Aragorn) and those who have seen the Light have the most. Thus, I'd imagine that Gildor, who at least has ancestors gifted by the Light that are less removed than Aragorn's ancestor, would be somewhere between the Aragorn point and the Glorfindel point on that spectrum.

So maybe Gildor isn't a shining beacon in the way that Glorfindel is. But he might still engage the other senses of the Ringwraiths and loom large in their minds.

 

[Tungol]

Also, wasn't quite a point made of Finrod not marrying in Middle-earth because he'd left his fiancée Amarië behind in Valinor…and we know that Finrod has been rebodied and reunited with her because he's used as an example of that process.

I understand that it would be unlikely that Finrod and Amarië would have a child before marrying, and even more unlikely—to the point of absurdity even—that he would have a child with anyone else, which pretty much counts out the "likely way" suggested above.

I agree. There is another remote possibility that Finrod and Amarië had a child after Finrod was rebodied in Valinor. Gildor could have then been brought back into Middle Earth the way Glorfindel was. The article I linked mentions this, but it's the most far-fetched option in my view. We are told many times in the Silmarillion that Finrod is childless.

 

[NotACat]

I agree. There is another remote possibility that Finrod and Amarië had a child after Finrod was rebodied in Valinor. Gildor could have then been brought back into Middle Earth the way Glorfindel was. The article I linked mentions this, but it's the most far-fetched option in my view. We are told many times in the Silmarillion that Finrod is childless.

I thought that tied into the whole "can't marry anyone here because my true love waits for me in Valinor" thing. Does it specifically say that he will never have children?

 

[MithLuin]

Agreed - Finrod's childlessness is related to his lack of marriage in Middle Earth. After his death and rebirth, he marries Amarië, so it is conceivable that they would have children in Valinor after that time. But if such a child existed, travelling to Middle Earth might seem a bit of a stretch. Why? Glorfindel has his reasons for returning, but a child of Finrod would have less of one. So it is a possibility, but an unlikely one.


'House of Finrod' need not be a descendant of Finrod, though. House could, in this case, be 'household'. We know Gondolin had Houses for all of their nobles, and while Nargothrond didn't have such a formal court, it is possible that Finrod had a group of elves who were considered his own personal household. The 10 who died with him would be likely candidates, but that might not have been all of them, or Inglor and Gildor could be descended from them. [Edrahil is named, but we don't know the other 9, I don't think, unless they are named in the Lay.]