Anthony Lawther
Well-Known Member
Back-Nitpick
In LOTR Elladan and Elrohir are not counted as elves:
"And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell." (Legolas)
"Presently Éomer came out from the gate, and with him was Aragorn, and Halbarad bearing the great staff close-furled in black, and two tall men, neither young nor old. So much alike were they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart: dark-haired, grey-eyed, and their faces elven-fair, clad alike in bright mail beneath cloaks of silver-grey."
"The Lady Éowyn greeted them and was glad of their coming; for no mightier men had she seen than the Dúnedain and the fair sons of Elrond."
"There was Gandalf as chief herald, and Aragorn with the sons of Elrond, and Éomer of Rohan, and Imrahil; and Legolas and Gimli and Peregrin were bidden to go also, so that all the enemies of Mordor should have a witness." - if sons of Elrond were counted as elves, Legolas would not have been needed.
citied after:
Sorry for the thread hi-jack, but I have to do it.
Ok, so I don't have a reddit post to back me up, nor have I performed as exhaustive an analysis as I'd like to refute this claim that relies on cherry-picked evidence.
A. Given that they aren't Lords, they can't be Elven-Lords, regardless of their race. Hardly compelling on its own.
B. Elves are described as looking neither young nor old (sometimes the term used is ageless), so this is actually a point in favour of them being (and being considered) Elves.
C. Counter evidence for usage of 'men' to mean Humans exclusively, from Book 1 alone:
In chapter 1, when the post-offices are overwhelmed they call for volunteer assistant postmen.
In chapter 2, in the Ring poem and Gandalf's explanation of it 'Mortal Men' is used for metrical reasons and to distinguish Humans from Elves and Dwarves.
In chapter 3, as they leave Bag-End the Gaffer (a Hobbit) is referred to as a man (lowercase m), then after the first roadside encounter with a Nazgûl "'There are some Men about,' said Frodo. 'Down in the Southfarthing they have had trouble with Big People, I believe.'" and when talking with Gildor "The tidings were mostly sad and ominous: of gathering darkness, the wars of Men, and the flight of the Elves."
In chapter 8, after the rescue from the Barrow-wight, Merry reports "'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted."
In chapter 9, after arriving at the Prancing Pony, "...but at the moment he was finding his first sight of Men and their tall houses quite enough," and after Frodo's vanishing incident "Most of the Hobbits and the Men of Bree went off... The Dwarves and the two or three strange Men that still remained..."
In chapter 10, Gandalf in his letter states "You may meet a friend of mine on the Road: a Man, lean, dark, tall, by some called Strider."
In chapter 11, when Aragorn ends his recitation under Weathertop he refers to Beren as a 'mortal man'.
In Chapter 12, Strider describes Athelas as "a healing plant that the Men of the West brought to Middle-earth." and later in the same chapter Strider responds to Frodo's question "'No!' said Strider. 'Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now.'"
There are more examples, but I believe the pattern to be clear here. The usage falls into three categories:
1. Man - Used to distinguish the Race of Man from other races. Note that the term Big People is used exclusively to describe Humans.
2. man - used to refer to the males of any race. As we don't seem to see any female Dwarves or Orcs, people don't seem to feel the need to mark their gender, so we don't get confirming datapoints there.
3. -man - used as a suffix to associate a role with the root word, e.g. postman, horseman, Swordsman.
Therefore, there doesn't appear to be any evidence of their race from the examples given by Odola or greyvagabond on reddit.
D. Regarding 'Elven-fair', if this discounts the sons of Elrond then Luthien is not an Elf either. From Book 1 chapter 11:
emphasis addedTinúviel the elven-fair,
Immortal maiden elven-wise,
About him cast her shadowy hair
And arms like silver glimmering.
Also Elrond, from Book 2 chapter 1:
so she seems to be in good Elven company. If Luthien is an Elf and can be described this way, so too can the Sons of Elrond and Celebrían be Elves.And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas.
Elven-fair and Elven-wise seem to be translations of single Westron words to English compound words to properly convey the meaning. That is the working theory of the class and there haven't been any examples so far that seem to refute it.
E. The composition of the company that goes to the Black Gate could be as simple as Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Peregrin if it was composed purely by racial representation. No need for the Sons of Elrond to be included on either side of the racial divide.
It appears to me that it is instead composed by realm:
Gandalf - chief herald and Istar (no fixed realm; representing the others who couldn't be here?)
Aragorn - Chieftan of the Dunedain (remnant of the North Kingdom)
Sons of Elrond - (Imladris and the remnant of the Noldor)
King Éomer - (Kingdom of Rohan)
Prince Imrahil - (South Kingdom in place of the Steward)
Prince Legolas - (Kingdom of Mirkwood)
Gimli - Son of Ambassador Glóin (Kingdom of Erebor and the Iron Hills)
Peregrin - Son of the Thain (The Shire)
Lothlórien isn't represented, but they are busy with Dol Goldur around this time so we can forgive them.
The Havens aren't represented, but they didn't really get an invitation, or at least didn't accept one.
Who else of the Free Peoples are missing?
F. Finally, the absolute clincher for me is the fact that they are almost 2900 years old. No member of the Race of Man has lived even half that long without the direct intervention of Eru (I'm looking at you Ar-Pharazôn). All of this also applies to Arwen (an Elf-maid) who become mortal at around 2700 years old after making the choice of Luthien. Note that the choice of Luthien was made before Elrond and Elros were born, so the choice of the Half-Elven isn't relevant to her choice.
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