Is "who is creating the paths" the wrong question?

We spent a lot of time during the last class talking about who might be making the paths in the forest. The characters in the book suggest it's the trees, while others in the class asked about Bombadil, wild animals and other visitors. But we never really reached a conclusion.

I think that's the wrong question. I think the question we should be asking is "Who created this path" each time we come across one.

I think that there's two main phenotypes for paths.

First, tree paths. Trees move, and can create paths quickly. These paths are designed to confuse travelers, so they wind a great deal, leading towards the Withywindle, feel oppressive, and will resort to making travel in one direction impossible if a traveler tries to escape the way the trees want to bring them.

Second, there's the paths of Tom Bombadil. We haven't reached these sections yet, so I won't go into detail, but Tom definitely creates paths. His paths seem more permanent, are straighter, lead to and from his home, and lack the menace of the tree paths.

But there's already one path which we've already come across which doesn't seem to fit either of these phenotypes. It's the one which leads to the hill where they look out at the forest. Here's the description:

"A heavy weight was settling steadily on Frodo’s heart, and he regretted now with every step forward that he had ever thought of challenging the menace of the trees. He was, indeed, just about to stop and propose going back (if that was still possible), when things took a new turn. The path stopped climbing, and became for a while nearly level. The dark trees drew aside, and ahead they could see the path going almost straight forward. Before them, but some distance off, there stood a green hill-top, treeless, rising like a bald head out of the encircling wood. The path seemed to be making directly for it."

I don't believe that this can one of Tom's paths. The description definitely makes it seem like it appeared in response to Frodo's impulse to turn back. Tom doesn't know they're in the forest yet, and doesn't seem able to just make paths appear like that anyway.

But it doesn't seem like a tree path either. This is a straight, level path which leads the hobbits to a hill where they are literally out of the clutches of the trees, for a time, and able to re-establish their bearings. That sounds nothing like the tree paths we see later.

I suppose it's plausible that the trees give this path to stop the hobbits turning back and escaping. But we see later that the trees' M.O. when it comes to preventing escape is to make it impossible to travel in the direction of escape. And, barring that, the hobbits were perfectly content travelling on the trees' path until the trees started menacing them and dropping boughs near them. They could just, you know, not do that. A broad straight path to a cleared hill is complete overkill.

Even if we can find ways around those problems, we also need to answer how the trees know Frodo is about to make them turn back. The path appears when the statement is on the tip of his tongue, but he hasn't yet said it. Are the trees telepathic? I see no other signs of that, and the ways they wait until someone is spoken aloud (and not merely thought) to do other things makes it seem unlikely.

No. The trees don't fit either of these phenotypes. So, the question is, who might know what Frodo is thinking, be able to create a path, and not want Frodo to turn back and face the Ringwraiths? Obviously the Valar. My money's on Oromë, but it could be another one.

Anyway, that's my reading of this. I don't think all the paths have a single source, and I think this passage shows that there's some sources which aren't even specifically mentioned in this chapter. Does this strike you as convincing? Should we stop asking "who created the paths?" and start asking "who created this path?"

Thoughts are welcome :)
 
Oh, as a bonus for anyone who got through that:

I have a theory about the path to the Bonfire Glade, which has disappeared. In chapter 5 Merry tells us "I’ve heard that [Farmer Maggot] used to go into the Old Forest at one time", and Tom Bombadil will soon tell us he and Farmer Maggot used to speak. I think that the path leading to the Bonfire Glade was a Bombadil path, and was where he used to meet Maggot. But since Maggot doesn't come to the Forest anymore, the path has disappeared.

It makes no difference to the story (so far as I can see), but it's an interesting little rationale for a path which, Merry tells us, had been there for a long time to have disappeared.
 
Interesting thoughts about the appearance of (or conveniently timed coming upon) the more open path to Bald Hill right when Frodo is about to give in and suggest they turn back. Perhaps there is more to that than mere coincidence.

Regarding the path to the Bonfire Glade, another sort of path to consider are those created by the passage of humans (hobbits or other sentient beings), who by regular travel can keep a path clear and open. Had there been more activity along that route, particularly in the time frame surrounding the bonfire incident, then the hobbits themselves would have kept the path open (or perhaps the trees themselves chose not to grow there for fear of the hobbits). Once the activity died down and few if any hobbits came that way the path grew over and disappeared.
 
Regarding the path to the Bonfire Glade, another sort of path to consider are those created by the passage of humans (hobbits or other sentient beings), who by regular travel can keep a path clear and open. Had there been more activity along that route, particularly in the time frame surrounding the bonfire incident, then the hobbits themselves would have kept the path open (or perhaps the trees themselves chose not to grow there for fear of the hobbits). Once the activity died down and few if any hobbits came that way the path grew over and disappeared.
Given the speed with which entirely fresh paths appear, it would seem to me unlikely that those made by intruders would be left intact for any significant length of time. You might force a passage through and find it closing up behind you as quickly as you are moving :eek:
 
Interesting thoughts about the appearance of (or conveniently timed coming upon) the more open path to Bald Hill right when Frodo is about to give in and suggest they turn back. Perhaps there is more to that than mere coincidence.

Didn't Corey suggest that this straight path to the hill was also the forest's creation? He said it was like the forest was taunting the hobbits, by giving them a high ground, from which they couldn't see anything but the Downs.

However, I think think that Jonathan's observations are excellent. The way it's described, it's like a small eucatastrophe that the hobbits find this straight path.

I think Corey's interpretation was based on the fact that hobbits view from the hill isn't very successful, but maybe this isn't the fault of whoever "created" the path. The passage does say that it's the autumn haze that blocks their view. And ultimately, the hobbits are cheered even by the sight of the Downs, because it's not more forest.

So yes, I think this could be another instance where we see some kind of "outside influence" on the turn of events. I like the suggestion of Oromë, because he is known for leading certain creatures along paths :)
 
FoxFire, I think that Hobbit traffic is a pretty reasonable explanation for the Bonfire Glade Path. It's certainly the simplest explanation I can think of, and without overwhelming evidence to the contrary, I tend to like the simplest explanation. But the more I think on it, the less convinced I am. There have been 5 potential sources of paths identified in this thread. Trees, Tom, Valar, Hobbit traffic, animals. Let's break each one down.

1. Animals: I'm just including this for the sake of thoroughness. There's no evidence of path making animals in the Old Forest, and no evidence to support or oppose this path being made by them.
2. Valar: I'm arguing that another path is made by the Valar, but I can't think of a motive for them wanting there to be a path from the hedge to the glade.
3. Trees: The trees certainly have the ability to make a path like this, and we could probably concoct a reasonable motive. I don't, however, see a motive for them to have created the path, left it there for a "long time", and then moved it elsewhere. What changed which caused them to eventually move it? Nothing which is revealed to us.
4. Hobbit traffic: Hobbit traffic certainly makes sense for maintaining the path. And while we're not told (as far as I can recall) that lots of Hobbits used to go into the Forest but fewer do now, that idea certainly matches the general direction Hobbit society seems to be moving. The only issue I have with this explanation is that Merry clearly thinks that the path disappeared due to a supernatural (not quite the appropriate word, but the best I can come up with) reason. If it were simply that traffic had slowed, Merry would need to be a fool to give the reaction he does.
5. Tom: We know that Tom makes paths. He's going to tell us explicitly. I don't think he gets out a hoe to do this, it's part of his mastery. If there's a place he wants a path to/frequents, the plants just get out of the way. We know that he and Maggot used to meet in the woods, where else except at the bonfire glade? And we know Tom valued their discussions, so this would be a place he wants to go/frequent. So, at least to me, it makes sense that a "Tom path" would be there. We also know (according to Merry) that Maggot no longer goes into the woods. Which explains why the path is no longer there.

I admit it takes a couple leaps to get there, and the case isn't strong enough for me to want to tell anyone who subscribes to another explanation that they're wrong. But it's the only explanation I see where means, opportunity, and motive are there both for the path to exist AND for it to move away. That, to me, makes it plausible enough to be worth discussing.
 
Tungol, that's definitely what Dr. Olsen suggested.

However, I think it's a conclusion arrived at backwards. The characters seem to assume that all the paths are created by the trees. And it's completely natural, as a reader, to accept that assumption at face value. If we start from that assumption, we never question who created the paths and instead just come up with a motive for the trees to create each path we see. I think that this is exactly what Dr. Olsen did.

But as soon as we see that Tom also makes paths (which we will), we need to go back and question our earlier assumption. Our assumption that the trees made the path led to our creating their motive, and that motive supported our assumption. But does the motive stand up on its own merits? I can think of 2 motives for the trees:

First, maybe they're trying to suck the hobbits further in. But that doesn't hold up for reasons I explained above. It means the trees are telepathic, it is contradicted by the actions of the trees immediately before the path shows up, and while it might be a motive for a path, it's not really a motive for this path as described.

Second, the trees are trying to taunt the Hobbits. I think you argue against this really effectively yourself. The hobbits are clearly cheered by their view and temporary escape from the forest. There's no indication I can see that they feel taunted. So, if it's a taunt, it's a mightily ineffective one. I also think this moment fits a larger pattern throughout LOTR, where characters are able to enjoy and be strengthened by islands of freedom and beauty even while surrounded by threat and menace. Think of lothlorien, or the star which smote Sam's heart, or the campfire with the conies. Temporary reprieves are a source of strength, not despair.

Those are the only motives I've seen or can come up with. Both are reasonable, if you know the path was created by trees. But I don't think we know that... and I think there's more complete explanations.
 
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So, if it's a taunt, it's a mightily ineffective one. I also think this moment fits a larger pattern throughout LOTR, where characters are able to enjoy and be strengthened by islands of freedom and beauty even while surrounded by threat and menace. Think of lothlorien, or the star which smote Sam's heart, or the campfire with the conies. Temporary reprieves are a source of strength, not despair.
That's a terrific parallel to draw, not something that would've occurred to me at all.

Of course, I think one could quibble about your analysis of the trees' motivation if one were sufficiently pedantic ... Which I am. In general, I'm wary of arguing motive based on outcome, because outcomes are so often unexpected. What reason do we have to believe the trees aren't just bad at taunting? Remember, they don't know they live in a universe where giving someone a glimpse of hope and then snatching it away tends to fortify people rather than demoralize them.

That said, I don't see any indication of a taunting impulse in the trees, and as you argue elsewhere, if their intent is to corral the Hobbits to their doom, the trees have other methods which are more in character to go about it. I still wouldn't rule out the possibility that they trees were - ineffectively - taunting them, but I think I agree that it's unlikely.
 
It seems evident to me that whichever force has created this particular path has malevolent intentions. Yes, the hobbits do seem momentarily cheered by the less oppressive atmosphere , but I don't think they recognize at that point in time that the forest is going to force them to go on a path quite different from the one they intend to take. Its almost as if they are collectively engaging in Pippin's walking party mentality; only worrying about their current situation, and not thinking where the steps ahead might lead.

There are two passages that are particularly relevant: " The sun on the hill-top was now getting hot. It must have been about eleven o'clock; but the autumn haze still prevented them from seeing much in other directions. In the west they could not make out either the line of the Hedge or the valley of the Brandywine beyond it. Northward, where they looked most hopefully, they could see nothing that might be the line of the great East Road, for which they were making. They were on an island in a sea of trees, and the horizon was veiled." In fact, the only direction they can see is the path of the Withywindle, which Merry says is the one direction they don't want to go through as its the queerest part of the forest. "As the sun rose and passed noon they glimpsed far off in the east the grey-green lines of the Downs that lay beyond the Old Forest on that side. That cheered them greatly; for it was good to see a sight of anything beyond the wood's borders, though they did not mean to go that way, if they could help it: the Barrow-downs had as sinister a reputation in hobbit-legend as the Forest itself."

Essentially the hobbits are only being shown the two areas of the Forest and beyond where they do not want to go, and ultimately where they are forced to travel anyway. Their spirits are buoyed because they are under the false impression they will have choice in the road they take, and they assume they can avoid those treacherous places. If you are correct that somehow this is a Valar-created path, the only purpose I could see it serving is as a warning to the hobbits about the perils that lay ahead; a message which they unfortunately do not heed.
 
BlueWizard, I think you need more evidence than the sections you quote, about the Hobbits' experience at the top of the hill, in order to conclude that "whichever force has created this particular path has malevolent intentions".

The simple fact is that the creation of the path had a good outcome. Without it, Frodo would have turned around and probably been caught by the black riders. Cue the end of the world.

The Valar therefore had strong motivation to intervene at this moment and prevent that from happening. We have motive, means and opportunity, coupled with a modus operandi which is in line with how the Valar seem likely to act and which is clearly different from how we will see other possible path-makers act. That's a pretty strong case.

And I don't see the passages you quoted as contradicting this at all -- they show exactly what we'd expect to see if the path was created by the Valar. It's pretty clear that the Valar have some kind of minimal interference principle, otherwise they'd just smite Sauron with lightning or something. If they intervened with the motive of stopping Frodo turning around, the continued presence of other dangers is exactly what we're expect. They wouldn't sweep away the fog, uproot old man willow, or give Frodo a clear sky and an eagle to ride all the way to Mt. Doom. If they interfered to stop Frodo turning around, their interference will have been enough to accomplish that and nothing more.

And that's exactly what we see.

None of that proves anything one way or the other, of course. But as I said to start, I think you need stronger evidence than some haze at the end of the path if you're going to stand by the contention that the path itself (which, after all, did something good) could only have been created by a malevolent power.
 
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Jonathan, I do agree that euccatastrophe is a prominent theme across Tolkien' works, and so beautifully demonstrates how (1) you should never despair if you do not know what the future holds, and (2) some things which seem bad in the short term end up having long term positive effects.

However, I am struggling to connect this concept with the Valar's potential involvement with the path. We do not know for sure that the hobbits would have turned around at this point, only that Frodo was going to suggest it to the others. It certainly is not the first, and won't be the last time that there are doubts about the course they are choosing to take. Also, I am not convinced that the Valar would interfere to the point of creating the path, but are too non-interventionist to also clear the haze. If the purpose of the path is to reinvigorate their spirits, why not show them their path ahead? And even if we were to suppose that is the case, who is the responsible for creating that haze to begin with? I know we are talking about the path, but I do think the haze is fairly significant as it is very specifically targets which areas are both visible and invisible to the hobbits. There is certainly meaning that we would be missing if we ignored that fact.
 
We do not know for sure that the hobbits would have turned around at this point, only that Frodo was going to suggest it to the others.
I suppose we don't know what would have happened. But Frodo is the leader of the party, if he wanted to turn around then the natural outcome is that they would have turned around. What scenario are you proposing where-in Frodo suggests they turn around, and then they don't?

If the purpose of the path is to reinvigorate their spirits, why not show them their path ahead?
If that was indeed the purpose of creating the path, I agree. It would make a lot of sense to show them the path ahead. But I did not propose that the purpose of the path was to "reinvigorate their spirits". I proposed that the purpose of the path is to stop them turning back... which it accomplishes... without clearing the haze. If the Valar can accomplish their goal without clearing the haze, why would we expect them to clear the haze?

who is the responsible for creating that haze to begin with
Presumably the haze has the same source whoever created the path. I'm not arguing that the haze isn't malevolent, just that the haze and the path are not necessarily created by the same source -- so the haze's malevolence is not evidence that the path is also malevolent.
 
who is the responsible for creating that haze to begin with? I know we are talking about the path, but I do think the haze is fairly significant as it is very specifically targets which areas are both visible and invisible to the hobbits. There is certainly meaning that we would be missing if we ignored that fact.

I've always associated the haze with the river-mist that first appears when the hobbits go to Bucklebury Ferry. That mist persists in the morning when the hobbits enter the Old Forest. In the passage in the bald hill, the mist/haze still seems to be coming from the river valley to the south: " Near at hand the mist was now almost gone; though here and there it lay in hollows of the wood, and to the south of them, out of a deep fold cutting right across the Forest, the fog still rose like steam or wisps of white smoke."

The Withywindle valley is "the queerest part of the whole wood", so I think that this indicates that the Withywindle river is sort of in cahoots with the rest of the forest. And it's the river that seems responsible for the mist/haze on the bald hill.
 
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