Only a Small Part in Great Deeds - Another Look At Gandalf's Response to Bilbo

[Rachel Port]

There's something about the sentence 'so-and-so laughed' that stickes with you. I still remember "Howard Roarke laughed." from The Fountainhead (I read it decades ago when I was in my mid-teens, so don't hold it against me). There is something freeing simply in the words. So yes, it's a freeing moment for Bilbo and for Galadriel - they both pass the test. I think of Galadriel describing what a victory it would have been for evil if she had taken the Ring from a guest by force - she is talking to Frodo confidentially as she only could do if she had conquered, to use Aragorn's word to Boromir. For the moment, there is real intimacy between Galadriel and Frodo, as there is here between Bilbo and Gandalf. The antidote is always in being together with other people.

 

[Odola]

As far as we have evidence for, Bilbo has spent most of the last 15 years living a sedentary and scholarly life. Maybe the concern for his ability is less to do with his desire for the Ring or his apparent age, and more to do with a ‘spare tyre’.

Frodo isn't the fittest either.
Bilbo has spend the last several years within Rivendell, under Elronds medical care, who no doubt made sure that the patient under his care had as much physical activity by wandering and fooling around with the elves and the best suited nourishment and occasionaly some "elvish healing magic" treatment applied as suited for his present condition. Frodo has been left to his own bachelor habits, which generally are not the healthiest possible.
And Frodo has been very seriously wounded and has bearely recovered just a few days ago.

Why on earth are people arguing about whether Bilbo should have been chosen? How did that even get started? I'm tired of getting notified of comments that are about something I didn't start.

Sometimes a thread starts to live a life of its own, just like Tolkien's intended "Hobbit sequel".


But it is an important question to ponder, because is does seem to an extend that Elrond and Gandalf are sacrificing Frodo - who a newcomer - for the sake of their old friend and renown hero Bilbo. Given that Frodo is (at the moment just) an adopted orphan with a tragic and at the same time scandalous parental background which automatically weakens his social standing, this choice of theirs needs some moral justification. And I can't see a clear one as yet. So it seems hasn't Flammifer.

It could also be that - as Gandalf intents to be part of this party himself - he just considers Frodo to be more dependable and accountable than the independant and slightly rebelious Bilbo, who aways has his own view of things. So it could just come down to Gandalf's character preferences for a suitable Ringbearer.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Quite possible Anthony. However, as the Company will not leave Rivendell for two months, Bilbo would have ample time to get back in shape.

I suggest that two months preparation for a 67 year old (let alone a 128 year old) would not be ample.

Frodo isn't the fittest either.
Bilbo has spend the last several years within Rivendell, under Elronds medical care, who no doubt made sure that the patient under his care had as much physical activity by wandering and fooling around with the elves and the best suited nourishment and occasionaly some "elvish healing magic" treatment applied as suited for his present condition. Frodo has been left to his own bachelor habits, which generally are not the healthiest possible.
And Frodo has been very seriously wounded and has bearely recovered just a few days ago.

At the risk of appearing inconsistent, I'd suggest that two months is shown by the text as ample recovery time for Frodo to return to the condition he was in prior to his wounding; or at least as close as was possible.
This good condition is pointed out in the text as they transit the Midgewater Marshes:

Next morning they set out again soon after sunrise. There was a frost in the air, and the sky was a pale clear blue. The hobbits felt refreshed, as if they had had a night of unbroken sleep. Already they were getting used to much walking on short commons - shorter at any rate than what in the Shire they would have thought barely enough to keep them on their legs. Pippin declared that Frodo was looking twice the hobbit that he had been.

'Very odd,' said Frodo, tightening his belt, 'considering that there is actually a good deal less of me. I hope the thinning process will not go on indefinitely, or I shall become a wraith.'

'Do not speak of such things!' said Strider quickly, and with surprising earnestness.

Sometimes a thread starts to live a life of its own, just like Tolkien's intended "Hobbit sequel".


But it is an important question to ponder, because is does seem to an extend that Elrond and Gandalf are sacrificing Frodo - who a newcomer - for the sake of their old friend and renown hero Bilbo. Given that Frodo is (at the moment just) an adopted orphan with a tragic and at the same time scandalous parental background which automatically weakens his social standing, this choice of theirs needs some moral justification. And I can't see a clear one as yet. So it seems hasn't Flammifer.

It could also be that - as Gandalf intents to be part of this party himself - he just considers Frodo to be more dependable and accountable than the independant and slightly rebelious Bilbo, who aways has his own view of things. So it could just come down to Gandalf's character preferences for a suitable Ringbearer.

Maybe the focus on the suitability of Bilbo as a Ring bearer is the less important factor. Perhaps Gandalf feels that convincing Frodo to give the Ring back to Bilbo would do irreparable damage to the relationship between these Hobbits. Gandalf makes it clear that his intent is for this to be a return journey, so that is something he would consider.

 

[Odola]

Perhaps Gandalf feels that convincing Frodo to give the Ring back to Bilbo would do irreparable damage to the relationship between these Hobbits. Gandalf makes it clear that his intent is for this to be a return journey, so that is something he would consider.

If it is too much to expect Frodo to give the ring back to Bilbo in a safe enviroment with all the moral support of the whole assembly gathered there, how he can be expected to be able to give it up at Mount Doom? Are they expecting him to jump in into the flames with it - as finally (though involuntary) Gollum does?

 

[Anthony Lawther]

If it is too much to expect Frodo to give the ring back to Bilbo in a safe enviroment with all the moral support of the whole assembly gathered there, how he can be expected to be able to give it up at Mount Doom? Are they expecting him to jump in into the flames with it - as finally (though involuntary) Gollum does?

There is a significant difference between casting it into the Cracks of Doom, where no-one will have it, and giving it back to a former owner, where they will have it and you will not. Would Bilbo have been so comfortable with handing the Ring back to Gollum?
My point was not the ease or difficulty of handing it over, but the effect it would have on the relationship between the Hobbits.

 

[Odola]

There is a significant difference between casting it into the Cracks of Doom, where no-one will have it, and giving it back to a former owner, where they will have it and you will not. Would Bilbo have been so comfortable with handing the Ring back to Gollum?
My point was not the ease or difficulty of handing it over, but the effect it would have on the relationship between the Hobbits.

If either of them perishes (highly probable), then there is no relationship anymore anyway, so it does not seem to outweigh the other arguments mentioned above for me.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

If either of them perishes (highly probable), then there is no relationship anymore anyway, so it does not seem to outweigh the other arguments mentioned above for me.

Gandalf doesn't seem to share your assessment of the probability. That is important to keep in mind for assessing his motivation for speaking to Bilbo the way he does.
In an attempt to bring this back toward what Rachel first posted, I agree that Gandalf was speaking affectionately, more so than carefully. Gandalf's disjointed speech is due to the fact that Bilbo is responding non-verbally, and the way Tolkien represents it with Gandalf responding verbally to Bilbo's actions actually allows a better flow than if it were to be broken by a description of Bilbo's actions. e.g.

`Of course, my dear Bilbo,' said Gandalf. `If you had really started this affair, you might be expected to finish it. But you know well enough now that starting is too great a claim for any, and that only a small part is played in great deeds by any hero.'
Bilbo bowed humbly to Gandalf at the implication of being a hero.
'You need not bow!' exclaimed Gandalf. 'Though the word was meant, and we do not doubt that under jest you are making a valiant offer.'
Bilbo appeared to prepare to protest.
'But one beyond your strength, Bilbo.' explained Gandalf respectfully. 'You cannot take this thing back. It has passed on. If you need my advice any longer, I should say that your part is ended, unless as a recorder. Finish your book, and leave the ending unaltered! There is still hope for it. But get ready to write a sequel, when they come back.'

My additions in bold

I recognise that I'm providing my own interpretation of how Gandalf is delivering this, and I don't doubt that Tolkien could find a more elegant way of representing it than my attempt, because I believe he already did and in a way that allows the reader to interpret it in a way that works for them.

 

[Odola]

Gandalf doesn't seem to share your assessment of the probability.

But Elrond does, as seen in his explicit reluctance to allow the young hobbits to enter the Fellowship. So the suspicion that he is more ready to sacrifice a relatively unknown (to him at least) Frodo over his long-time valued friend Bilbo, even if Bilbo seems altogether better fitted for the job, cannot be easily dismissed here. Prove me wrong, I would welcome it!

 

[Anthony Lawther]

This thread isn’t about proof, nor is my inability or unwillingness to try to prove you wrong proof of the validity of your statement. In fact, this thread isn’t about Elrond or his belief at all. It is about Gandalf and the reasoning behind why he reacted to Bilbo’s offer the way he did.

 

[Odola]

This thread isn’t about proof, nor is my inability or unwillingness to try to prove you wrong proof of the validity of your statement. In fact, this thread isn’t about Elrond or his belief at all. It is about Gandalf and the reasoning behind why he reacted to Bilbo’s offer the way he did.

And? In just the 2nd post of this thread Flammifer already has asked:

I have sometimes wondered whether Bilbo wouldn't have been a better choice for Ring-bearer than Frodo, and only Gandalf's preconceptions about Bilbo's potential vulnerability to the ring prevented this.

Bilbo has more experience with adventure and daring-do and sneaking into places than Frodo. Bilbo volunteers more promptly and readily than Frodo. Bilbo has actually given up the Ring before (sure, with a little prompting) whereas Frodo could not even throw it in his hearth fire. Why would anyone think he could throw it into Mt. Doom? Could Bilbo have thrown the Ring into the Fire? Who knows, but his track record in giving up the Arkenstone is certainly in his favor. Gandalf may be worried that the Ring has gained some hold on Bilbo. It has probably gained more hold on Frodo in the short time since he left the Shire than it gained on Bilbo in the 61 years he possessed it. Frodo has been wounded by the Morgul-knife, with unknown future consequences. Bilbo is still hale and hearty (I assume he has the physical condition of a Hobbit of between 50 and 67 years old, due to the suspension of aging while he held the Ring? Frodo is 50, after all. Bilbo cannot be physically very much more aged, movie depictions not withstanding.) At this point, Bilbo may have a greater understanding of the Ring, and wisdom about how to deal with it than Frodo does.

Every time I read Bilbo's volunteer during the Council of Elrond, I an tempted to think, "Come on Elrond and Gandalf! Forget your pre-conceptions! It is obvious that Bilbo is the best choice for Ring-bearer!"

Also, if Frodo could give the Ring up to anyone at the time of the Council (and it is possible that he still could - he has offered it to Gandalf, and will offer it to Galadriel) he is probably most likely, with the least harm to himself, to be able to give it back to Bilbo.

This is a valid and important question to ask in this context as it concerns the moral implication of this Gandalf's answer to Bilbo.

 

[Rachel Port]

Gandalf doesn't seem to share your assessment of the probability. That is important to keep in mind for assessing his motivation for speaking to Bilbo the way he does.
In an attempt to bring this back toward what Rachel first posted, I agree that Gandalf was speaking affectionately, more so than carefully. Gandalf's disjointed speech is due to the fact that Bilbo is responding non-verbally, and the way Tolkien represents it with Gandalf responding verbally to Bilbo's actions actually allows a better flow than if it were to be broken by a description of Bilbo's actions. e.g.

I agree - when I read Gandalf's speech out loud, it feels perfectly natural - he is interrupting himself to respond to Bilbo's bow, so his speech is a bit less smooth for a bit. I like your dramatization.

Odola, you may be right that it's an important question. You and Flammifer can start a new thread and discuss it in detail.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Rachel and Odola,

I am not sure that the swift dismissal of Bilbo's volunteering is an important question? I do think it is a curiosity, however.

One of a number of curiosities in the very curious chapter, 'The Council of Elrond'.

Boromir's Divine Dream (which should have been the most important 'message' to the Council) seems to have been swiftly dealt with and forgotten. Note Gandalf's comment, (in the beginning of the next chapter) after Bilbo said, "Everyone had an eye-opener. Even old Gandalf." and Gandalf replied, "If you want to know, the only real eye-openers, as you put it, were you and Frodo; and I was the only one who was not surprised." Really Gandalf? Boromir's Divine Dream did not surprise you? How come? Or have you dismissed and forgotten it?

The exact outcomes expected from throwing the Ring in the Fire are never stated. It is certainly never clear that throwing the Ring in the Fire will destroy Sauron and win the War! It can be deduced (though again never stated) that throwing the Ring in the Fire will destroy the Nazgul and weaken Sauron (and answer the Divine Dream), but it needs to be deduced and the clues are well concealed.

The impression of the Council, is that Gandalf and Elrond are concerned only with the disposal of the Ring (more-so than with the War, or with Boromir's Divine Dream). They also seem to have pre-conceived their desired outcome, and to be steering the Council towards it.

Now it may be (as Prof Olsen has argued) that they detect the currents of history, the devices of Providence, and the progression of the Song, and consider that their desired outcome is what fits. However, this is quite a stretch interpretation to expect the first-time reader to come up with?

I think the first-time reader, if reading critically, rather than just swept along by the narrative in willing suspension of disbelief, must be somewhat baffled by the entire Council. What exactly will destroying the Ring accomplish? Does this counsel answer Boromir's dream? How? What makes Frodo such a preferred candidate as Ring-bearer? etc. etc.

I could see a careful first time reader wondering, "Are we setting up a tragedy here? Are the prejudices and fears of Elrond and Gandalf going to lead the whole enterprise astray? How will Frodo ever be able to fulfil the mission? He could not throw the Ring into his hearth fire, after seeing that it did it no harm. Why would anyone think he can throw it into Mt. Doom? How possibly could the Ring then come to be destroyed? What will happen after the Ring is destroyed? How will Sauron then be defeated? Will he be defeated?"

"Or, is this all going to end in some Gotterdammerung of all the Free Peoples?"

"Well, I guess, read on, and we will find out!"

 

[Kate Neville]

Hi Rachel and Odola,

I am not sure that the swift dismissal of Bilbo's volunteering is an important question? I do think it is a curiosity, however.

One of a number of curiosities in the very curious chapter, 'The Council of Elrond'.

Boromir's Divine Dream (which should have been the most important 'message' to the Council) seems to have been swiftly dealt with and forgotten. Note Gandalf's comment, (in the beginning of the next chapter) after Bilbo said, "Everyone had an eye-opener. Even old Gandalf." and Gandalf replied, "If you want to know, the only real eye-openers, as you put it, were you and Frodo; and I was the only one who was not surprised." Really Gandalf? Boromir's Divine Dream did not surprise you? How come? Or have you dismissed and forgotten it?

The exact outcomes expected from throwing the Ring in the Fire are never stated. It is certainly never clear that throwing the Ring in the Fire will destroy Sauron and win the War! It can be deduced (though again never stated) that throwing the Ring in the Fire will destroy the Nazgul and weaken Sauron (and answer the Divine Dream), but it needs to be deduced and the clues are well concealed.

The impression of the Council, is that Gandalf and Elrond are concerned only with the disposal of the Ring (more-so than with the War, or with Boromir's Divine Dream). They also seem to have pre-conceived their desired outcome, and to be steering the Council towards it.

Now it may be (as Prof Olsen has argued) that they detect the currents of history, the devices of Providence, and the progression of the Song, and consider that their desired outcome is what fits. However, this is quite a stretch interpretation to expect the first-time reader to come up with?

I think the first-time reader, if reading critically, rather than just swept along by the narrative in willing suspension of disbelief, must be somewhat baffled by the entire Council. What exactly will destroying the Ring accomplish? Does this counsel answer Boromir's dream? How? What makes Frodo such a preferred candidate as Ring-bearer? etc. etc.

I could see a careful first time reader wondering, "Are we setting up a tragedy here? Are the prejudices and fears of Elrond and Gandalf going to lead the whole enterprise astray? How will Frodo ever be able to fulfil the mission? He could not throw the Ring into his hearth fire, after seeing that it did it no harm. Why would anyone think he can throw it into Mt. Doom? How possibly could the Ring then come to be destroyed? What will happen after the Ring is destroyed? How will Sauron then be defeated? Will he be defeated?"

"Or, is this all going to end in some Gotterdammerung of all the Free Peoples?"

"Well, I guess, read on, and we will find out!"

I think Gandalf was not surprised by Boromir's dream because Elrond would have shared that info with him (Elrond clearly debriefed Boromir when he arrived). But Gandalf definitely WAS surprised that Frodo dreamed about his imprisonment on Orthanc. “Gandalf paused astonished and looked at him.” So there Elfwand!

 

[Rachel Port]

I could see a careful first time reader wondering, "Are we setting up a tragedy here? Are the prejudices and fears of Elrond and Gandalf going to lead the whole enterprise astray? How will Frodo ever be able to fulfil the mission? He could not throw the Ring into his hearth fire, after seeing that it did it no harm. Why would anyone think he can throw it into Mt. Doom? How possibly could the Ring then come to be destroyed? What will happen after the Ring is destroyed? How will Sauron then be defeated? Will he be defeated?"

At risk of another hijack, Frodo's job is to take the Ring to the Fire, so his not being able to throw it in the hearthfire isn't crucial. He may be the only one who could get it there, as Elrond later says - I think he is - but the fact is, he does get it there, and he does make sure Gollum is still alive to finish the job.

 

[Kate Neville]

At risk of another hijack, Frodo's job is to take the Ring to the Fire, so his not being able to throw it in the hearthfire isn't crucial. He may be the only one who could get it there, as Elrond later says - I think he is - but the fact is, he does get it there, and he does make sure Gollum is still alive to finish the job.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than men: and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[Flammifer]

I think Gandalf was not surprised by Boromir's dream because Elrond would have shared that info with him (Elrond clearly debriefed Boromir when he arrived). But Gandalf definitely WAS surprised that Frodo dreamed about his imprisonment on Orthanc. “Gandalf paused astonished and looked at him.” So there Elfwand!

I agree, Kate, that Gandalf might have heard of Boromir's Dream the night before? However, to say that he was not surprised by it at the Council just because he heard it a few hours before is pure sophistry.

 

[Flammifer]

At risk of another hijack, Frodo's job is to take the Ring to the Fire, so his not being able to throw it in the hearthfire isn't crucial. He may be the only one who could get it there, as Elrond later says - I think he is - but the fact is, he does get it there, and he does make sure Gollum is still alive to finish the job.

That, Rachel, is a perfectly good explanation from hindsight, but somewhat opaque to the first-time reader.

 

[Odola]

That, Rachel, is a perfectly good explanation from hindsight, but somewhat opaque to the first-time reader.

That is the point. Gandalf might have some premonition about the Song which allows him to make some suprarational choices, but he seems not to foresee his own death as yet. How he convinces Elrond and the rest to send the least experienced novice at the Council who does not even bother to learn the maps presented to him during the next two months is not clear from the text - which gives the point of view of Frodo. Frodo has no records of finding places. He has only proven his ability to get lost as yet, without Aragorn he would not be able to find Rivendell on his own. As a rational trained warrior and strategist Boromir has all the rights in the world not to take Frodo at all seriously.

 

[Rachel Port]

That, Rachel, is a perfectly good explanation from hindsight, but somewhat opaque to the first-time reader.

Good - a first time reader should not be able to see the end clearly, but should be allowed to watch things unfold and pick up clues along the way. What is an adventure story without some suspense?

 

[Kate Neville]

I agree, Kate, that Gandalf might have heard of Boromir's Dream the night before? However, to say that he was not surprised by it at the Council just because he heard it a few hours before is pure sophistry.

I suspect that he would have said, "Well, it was not an 'eye-opener."

And, to be fair, his following words about Frodo and Bilbo being the only true eye-openers may color what he meant: that Frodo and Bilbo, as hobbits, were far more naive about the peoples and history of Middle-earth [think of Gandalf's correction to Frodo about the character of Men]. Viewed this way, for Gandalf to say he was not 'surprised' by Boromir's dream, or Frodo's dream, meant that he was not surprised that such dreams should be sent. In that regard, Frodo's dream is more surprising because it doesn't seem to have a 'purpose' in the same way as Boromir's.

But I admit I may be splitting hairs.