S02E03: The Great Debate

I've got a free weekend this week for the most part, I'll play some catch up with this and see what I can figure out for the frame.
 
Okay, I know we're still waiting for the recordings to be available, but I figured I'd start on an Outline.

*Work in Progress*

0. Skeleton/Story Question – Should we stay or should we go?

1. Teaser – Frame: Elladan and Elrohir visit their sister in Lothlorien?
Main: The reunions of the Ambassadors with their families.
​
2. Finwë and Míriel engaged/discussing their future.

3. Ingwë tells the Vanyar of the plans to go to Valinor. There is general agreement and this goes over well. After greeting his brother Olwë, Elwë has a similar conversation with the Teleri that goes...less well. Introduce Nurwen, elf girl who has been pining for Elwë; he is oblivious to her interest.

3.5 Dark Rider returns to Angband. Discussion between Sauron and Gothmog focusing on their different plans for the captive elves and introducing their conflict. Gothmog is dismissive of Sauron and wants to kill all the elves. Sauron is snarky and sulky in response; we see that he is outgunned in Angband.

4. First plot point – Míriel's sister(?) does not approve of the planned wedding, and tries to warn Míriel against it. Míriel defends her choice, and says she is ready to go to Valinor with Finwë. She also expresses a belief that their love is stronger because it endured through a long separation.

5. Wedding! Much music, such dancing, wow - party.

6. First pinch point – Dissension in Noldor camp. Elwë sends Celeborn to fetch the newly-wed Finwë to deal with this. Celeborn is told to go away. Ingwë sends a second messenger (or goes himself) and says no really, we need you, it's a bit of an emergency.

7. Morwë, Míriel's suitor from Episode 2, is actively thwarting any 'let's get ready to leave' plans. Many of the Noldor are reluctant to leave their land and their projects here ('I just started building a bridge, so....'). Finwë attempts to reassure everyone (we have so much to learn in Valinor!) and maybe suggests dealing with this...later.

8. Mid point – The Vanyar and Teleri arrive and we have a full scale debate.

9. The arguments start out cordial, but become more heated. The Vanyar are a strong unified voice for leaving, and those wanting to stay become more and more defensive. An elf (Nurwen? Círdan? Lenwë?) mentions unsettling dreams about leaving for the West. Eöl says his piece (calls Valinor a cage and accuses the Valar of not caring and wanting slaves - but also warns that this will end in blood) and storms off in a huff. He notices a large bat as he leaves.

10. Second pinch point – Spy!Thurengwethil returns to Angband, and we check in with Sauron and Gothmog. Sauron reveals to her his motivation for working with the elves - why destroy what you can cultivate?

11. Back to the Debate - they are still...debating. Fears are raised - the fear of staying with the dangers of Middle Earth, the anger that the Valar have done 'nothing' to stop the Hunter, and the fear of unknown Valinor. Lenwë is very uncertain. Círdan expresses concern about the true purpose of the elves - trying to cut through both fear and desire to get at what is the right thing to do.

12. Second plot point – Morwë becomes the main spokesman for the reluctant Noldor. He stresses 'What about our culture? We would be overshadowed by the Valar.' The main spokesman for the reluctant Teleri is Nurwen. She speaks of how wonderful Middle Earth is and how long and difficult the journey will be.

13. Final impassioned speech by Míriel, who feels the need to personally counter Morwë's points and hopes to win over her own family.

14. Climax 1 – Míriel's sister decides to remain with the Avari. We see other families also split over this decision.

15. Climax 2 – The Calaquendi pack up camp and...leave.

16. Dénouement – Frame?? - Hosts want the question of whether or not Arwen will go to Valinor on the table by this point. A discussion with her brothers could be helpful here, or...?
 
Last edited:
MithLuin said:
Okay, I know we're still waiting for the recordings to be available, but I figured I'd start on an Outline.

*Work in Progress*

0. Skeleton/Story Question – Should we stay or should we go?

1. Teaser – Frame: Elladan and Elrohir visit their sister in Lothlorien?
Main: The reunions of the Ambassadors with their families.
​
2. Finwë and Míriel engaged/discussing their future.

3. Ingwë tells the Vanyar of the plans to go to Valinor. There is general agreement and this goes over well. After greeting his brother Olwë, Elwë has a similar conversation with the Teleri that goes...less well. Introduce Nurwen, elf girl who has been pining for Elwë; he is oblivious to her interest.

4. First plot point – Míriel's sister(?) does not approve of the planned wedding, and tries to warn Míriel against it. Míriel defends her choice, and says she is ready to go to Valinor with Finwë. She also expresses a belief that their love is stronger because it endured through a long separation.

5. Wedding! Much music, such dancing, wow - party.

6. First pinch point – Dissension in Noldor camp. Elwë sends Celeborn to fetch the newly-wed Finwë to deal with this. Celeborn is told to go away. Ingwë sends a second messenger (or goes himself) and says no really, we need you, it's a bit of an emergency.

7. Morwë, Míriel's suitor from Episode 2, is actively thwarting any 'let's get ready to leave' plans. Many of the Noldor are reluctant to leave their land and their projects here ('I just started building a bridge, so....'). Finwë attempts to reassure everyone (we have so much to learn in Valinor!) and maybe suggests dealing with this...later.

8. Mid point – The Vanyar and Teleri arrive and we have a full scale debate.

9. The arguments start out cordial, but become more heated. The Vanyar are a strong unified voice for leaving, and those wanting to stay become more and more defensive. An elf (Nurwen? Círdan? Lenwë?) mentions unsettling dreams about leaving for the West. Eöl says his piece (calls Valinor a cage and accuses the Valar of not caring and wanting slaves) and storms off in a huff.

10. Second pinch point – Spy!Thurengwethil returns to Angband, and we check in with Sauron and Gothmog.

11. Back to the Debate - they are still...debating. Fears are raised - the fear of staying with the dangers of Middle Earth, the anger that the Valar have done 'nothing' to stop the Hunter, and the fear of unknown Valinor. Lenwë is very uncertain. Círdan expresses concern about the true purpose of the elves - trying to cut through both fear and desire to get at what is the right thing to do.

12. Second plot point – Morwë becomes the main spokesman for the reluctant Noldor. He stresses 'What about our culture? We would be overshadowed by the Valar.' The main spokesman for the reluctant Teleri is Nurwen. She speaks of how wonderful Middle Earth is and how long and difficult the journey will be.

13. ???

14. Climax 1 – Míriel's sister decides to remain with the Avari. We see other families also split over this decision.

15. Climax 2 – The Calaquendi pack up camp and...leave.

16. Dénouement – Frame?? - Hosts want the question of whether or not Arwen will go to Valinor on the table by this point. A discussion with her brothers could be helpful here, or...?
Click to expand...
Good work on the outline.

I still that whoever the central protagonist is should, in the climax, reverse their position, i.e. they start out as a staunch remainer and become convinced to leave (or vice versa). It provides a good arc to hang the story off and illustrates that it is a genuine debate, rather than two intractable sides angrily stating their positions at each other.

So our B plot protagonist looks like Míriel her conflict is with her family, embodied by her sister(?), as they want to leave. This is the lens we see the Noldor half of the debate through. Ultimately, the B plot has a sad ending – Míriel can't reconsile her family's desire to stay with Finwë's desire to leave, and she chooses her husband and is sundered from her family.

For the A plot, it wants to be a lens for the Teleri story. Since the B plot protagonist opts to leave, it would provide a nice contrast for the A-protagonist to stay. Which would mean they should start out on the leave side. I think the ideal candidate is Nurwen. She starts off besotted with the oblivious Elwë and will follow him, she then becomes convinced – partially as a consequence of being rejected by Elwë, but not primarily because of it, perhaps she becomes swayed by Eöl? – that remaining is the right thing, it is then her voice in the debate that is decisive for the Teleri-remainers.

On a more frivolous note, which I don't expect anyone to be convinced by, I still love the idea of Finwë and Míriel's honeymoon being something approaching a comedy of manners, with it being interrupted in sequence by her family, Celeborn and finally Ingwë.
 
I like that B plot quite a bit, and I think it will be a bit more poignant when Feanor is born; I think we show her eagerly anticipating his birth, she's putting a lot on the unborn Feanor as she's lonely without her family.
 
Having Nurwen and Míriel be the yin and yang of this episode makes sense to me - everything they're going through can be seen as opposite, they can be foils for each other, etc. We don't want them to be *complete* mirrors, of course, but we can do a lot with this.

I actually get rather annoyed with the 'if there's no growth there's no story' philosophy forcing people into fake starting points so that they can later grow into their role. Sure, *sometimes* it makes perfect sense (say, John Snow going from moody teen to young leader). But other times, it's very forced (Aragorn buying into the 'men are weak' nonsense in FotR). So, my caution would be that *if* we are going to have Nurwen change her position over the course of this episode, we should be careful to make sure she's 'true to herself' or whatever - the grain of her change of heart has to be in place from the beginning, and she can't just change because Elwë doesn't notice her. I can imagine her giving up on him about the time of the wedding, maybe earlier, and that's only halfway through the episode.

We also can't reverse important character growth for characters who have much larger arcs just to see 'growth' in one episode. Nurwen will only appear here, never to be seen again. She can be a background character without lines in Episodes 1 & 2, but Episode 3 is really it for her. That won't be the case with other characters, so....we have to keep the growth organic rather than plot-convenient.
 
I actually rather liked the idea of Míriel's sister/cousin/relative as Arewn's mentor but agree it would probably be difficult to implement that without loads of unnecessary complication...

It's still a great idea in theory, though.
 
I would like to replace the Twins in the Frame with a new character - Arwen's friend in Lothlorien who is taking advantage of the peace in the aftermath of the Battle of Five Armies to travel to the Grey Havens and take a ship into the West. So, they are still discussing 'should we stay or should we go?' but Arwen's friend actually decides to go. This would be in place of the 'Arwen's mentor in Rivendell' side story.
 
Hey, I just happened to be reading the story of Eol, and discovered that he basically tells Maeglin that he is one of the Teleri. Now, we have him as one of the Noldor. Does it make a difference either way? I mean, it seems natural to make him Noldor due to his craft, and his nasty attitude, but ...
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Hey, I just happened to be reading the story of Eol, and discovered that he basically tells Maeglin that he is one of the Teleri. Now, we have him as one of the Noldor. Does it make a difference either way? I mean, it seems natural to make him Noldor due to his craft, and his nasty attitude, but ...
Click to expand...
Oops.... I suppose it won't affect our story that much if we make him a Teleri. I think we could just change it. But we should perhaps notify the executives...
 
I remember that I suggested Eöl could be a Noldo during the live session. Dr O said yes, he could be. No one checked it at the time.
 
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