Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Nicholas Palazzo, Jan 6, 2018.
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Notes from this Script Discussion:
Mablung and Gamil. Mablung is delivering payment, Gamil is picking up lumber for fuel. They discuss how they still don’t have nearly enough equipment to arms all of the elves. leading into shot dwarf and Green-elf confrontation. Mablung defuses
Young Captain Galdor returns to Eglarest reports sighting fires in the mountains to the North.
Boldog’s Orcs raid elvish settlement in northeast Beleriand, leave none alive.
Cirdan meets with Thingol in Menegroth.
Mablung and Denethor catching up, Denethor explains why he’s there, why they don’t like tree-cutting. Mablung meets Treebeard. We see the way the Green Elves live.
Mablung reports Green-elf situation to Thingol. Thingol puts Luthien in charge of Cirdan and leaves for parts east.
Tevildo/Sauron scene, Tevildo reports a troubling lack of elves in Doriath. Sauron mocks his failure. Sauron sends Thuringwethil to check on Boldog.
Trees continue to be cut. Green-elves watch from the forest edge. Gamil leaves the camp with wagons of logs. Green-elves will follow them.
Cirdan gets a tour of Menegroth from Luthien. Luthien mentions that she’s never seen the sea.
Thingol meeting with dwarves and Green-elves and ents. Previous agreement with dwarves. Treebeard and Denethor decry the dwarves as destroyers of life. Dwarves state that they need fuel to supply the elves with weapons and armor. Thingol talks about their common enemy and how the green-elves are under-equipped. Denethor says they have a common enemy right here.
Morgoth/Gothmog scene. Gothmog updates Morgoth. Morgoth is shown to be sending his power out into Middle Earth.
Cirdan and Melian have an ominous conversation about the future. Set amongst the forges of Menegroth where dwarvish and elvish smiths work, Cirdan marvels at the strength of Menegroth and its armaments. Melian laments that some enemies no strength can overcome. What then can we do? Remind me again why you remained on the shores of Middle-Earth?
Gamil returns to his forge just in time for the Ents to attack and obliterate it. Gamil dies. Horribly.
Thingol learns of the attack, and is angry. Denethor rationalizes the Ents’ behavior. The dwarves still don’t get it. Nurn takes the dwarves on the other side of the “room” asks if they absolutely must cut down THESE trees. Convinces them not to cut down trees HERE. Negotiates with Thingol for food to be delivered. Denethor agrees to get the ents to stand down.
Boldog and Thuringwethil, Boldog complaining about not ‘enough elves to murder. Thuringwethil threatens Boldog, tells him to keep marching southward, promises to fly south seeking elves.
Ents say goodbye to Green-elves for a time.
Thingol returns, extends invitation to Cirdan. Luthien is excited, Melian, says nothing. Cirdan thanks Thingol, but declines and will return to the havens.
I have a feeling that there will be some questions...
As I said in my comments on Episode 4, I think it is a huge mistake to depict Doriath as the only place on Earth where Melian ended the Sleep of Yavanna. I would have argued against it before, but I thought we had agreed that she does that to all of Beleriand, like in the book, so the Sindar can live in all of Beleriand -- again, like in the book. If the rest of Beleriand is a lifeless wasteland, then there will be no Mithrim clans to meet Feanor and sons and later tell Fingolfin's host that Feanor was killed and Maedhros captured, no wandering huntsmen in East Beleriand, no Sindar anywhere for Thingol to warn the Noldor not to take away their homes. To set up that message he sends via Angrod, there have to be Sindar communities outside of Doriath and the Havens. That means that Beleriand can't be lifeless, or they would all choose to live in Doriath from the very beginning.
Please don't make huge drastic changes to the book without thinking through all the consequences. Every change has the potential to destroy essential plots in later episodes or seasons.
The trees don't need to be a non-renewable resource, the Green Elves and Ents only need to think of them as non-renewable, habitually. They came to Beleriand in part to seek a greener land (literally) but aren't used to thinking of it as a living, growing land. And Ents don't want forests cut down whether or not the trees can grow back.
I am not comfortable with war between Ent and Dwarves. Ents destroying their forges, chasing them from the forest, and getting a long-lasting dislike for them is a good idea. But why do they need to actually kill Gamil Zirak?
There are no Mithrim Sindar elves in this version of the story - the Hosts have been pretty clear on that point multiple times. They think it confuses and muddies the story to have too many groups of elves to keep track of. So, there are Círdan's people in the Havens, and the wandering/scattered Sindar who will become the denizens of Doriath. And Eöl. There are no elves living north of the mountains of Ered Wethrin/Dorthonion...yet.
You are correct that we have lifted the Sleep of Yavanna so that trees are no longer considered a non-renewable resource, and the Ent/Green Elf issue is with the destruction and death of trees, full stop.
If there is an attack and nobody dies, the attack might seem to be without consequences. I don't think we can have a G-rated ent battle to establish that ents are too gentle/nice to ever harm anyone without severely changing their characterization. They seldom do this, it is true, but when they were attacking in retaliation for killed trees...why *wouldn't* they kill the culprits?
The elderly dwarf who is the master of Telchar will not be named Gamil Zirak. Gamil means 'old', so we will need a different name with the Gamil prefix. Gamil Zirak is one of the few named dwarves Tolkien provided in the published Silmarillion, so we're going to be making up a lot. We're using Telchar here, but saving Gamil Zirak for later (he will be the maker of the Nauglamir, actually). This was a decision of the Hosts.
No Mithrim? What the heck? So who fosters Tuor? Who tells the Noldor that Feanor was killed and Maedhros was captured? Who are the Sindar who go with Turgon to Gondolin? Who is Voronwe's mother and why does he want to leave Gondolin and join the Sindar? Who is Finduilas' mother? Who is Thingol trying to protect by banning the Noldor from settling anywhere without permission?
That completely ruins the Tuor storyline. I mean, it makes his entire storyline flat-out impossible. It is now impossible to tell Tuor's story, at all, full stop. The series will END with the Fifth Battle because the Hosts have painted it into a completely impossible corner from which it cannot be recovered.
This is completely crazy. Much worse than making Galadriel a Kinslayer. This would be like making Galadriel die at Alqualonde. They cannot just write Annael out of existence. I suppose Huor is going to come home and raise his son in domestic bliss, and come with him to Gondolin too? Sure, why not? Let's give Turin a happy ending too.
If the Hosts are going to make drastic, book-burning changes, they should think about the consequences. Eliminating Tuor's childhood is a bridge too far for me. Way, way too far. Tuor is far too important to destroy his story, for any reason. The Fall of Gondolin is half the reason the Silmarillion was even written. And the other half is Earendil son of Tuor.
I have to ask, right now, what Corey intends to do to Tuor's story. If he's going so far as to throw out Tuor being an orphan, and fostered by Elves, or do something stupid like making him grow up in Gondolin, I think I am going to have to leave this project, now. I enjoy discussing stories on the forum with people who don't want to change absolutely everything, but The Silmarillion is my favorite book, and I will not enjoy watching it burn. Better to save trouble now and just quit.
Presumably, we will have Sindar in Mithrim later. Just not right now. We won't show Mithrim on screen until after the Noldor get there.
I really want to know what Corey plans to do to Tuor's story. If he intends to rewrite that from scratch, I don't want to spend any more time on this project. Corey's goals are plainly diametrically opposed to mine.
We will certainly have plenty of time to get Sindarin elves in Mithrim between now and the tale of Tuor. The Noldor are aware of the fact that Feanor is killed because they are there when it happens. The same can happen with Maedhros. All we need is a single Noldo to escape after seeing Maedhros being dragged off.
We have time to put Sindar in Mithrim before Gondolin, and before Nargothrond. Thingol is trying to protect the Falathrim, the Elves of Doriath, and of Ossiriand. He does not prevent the Noldor from settling anywhere else.
This is certainly an over-statement. There is no reason why Sindar cannot move into the north later. While I do lament the loss of power in Thingol's claim to the northern lands, he never did have a very good claim to start with, as Maedhros points out.
I think that if you take a longer view, you may find that there is time for things to happen even if they do not happen immediately.
I do not foresee any of the things you mention happening. I think that if you look around you will find many for whom The Silmarillion is their favorite book, and will certainly do nothing to burn it.
Presumably, how? If Corey declared they do not exist and have never existed, then that's that. No Mithrim, no Annael, no Tuor as an orphan, no quest to find Turgon. Not unless this series is to be deliberately and blatantly self-contradictory.
How does Fingon know? The Feanorians reunite with Fingolfin's host to tell them that, and everybody is a happy family?
On the forum, yes, certainly. But not the Hosts. How many more pointless extreme changes are they going to make? I still don't even know for sure if Corey has been talked out of Galadriel being a Kinslayer -- he hasn't yet reviewed the script that says she didn't kill anyone. He says on the LotRO podcasts that the purpose of adaptation is to make as many "interesting" changes as possible.
I would imagine that over the hundreds of years between now and Turgon's departure for Gondolin, some of the Sindar immigrate to the lands where these exciting new Elves from the West are setting up shop. It really isn't that difficult.
No, the Feanorians are in contact with Fingolfin's host and give them a basic update on what has happened. No happy family. A feud, we can show them on the way to. At first, Fingolfin might be unsure of what tack to take with Feanor's sons. He may not be willing to blame them for their father's sins right out of the gate. There can be gradations over time rather than only open hostility or "happy family".
That's simply not an accusation I can let stand. Dave Kale had a reading from the Silmarillion done at his wedding, which was performed by Trish Lambert. They were both members of Prof. Olsen's "Silmarillion Seminar" from several years ago. Prof. Olsen is internationally known for bringing scholarly reading of Tolkien's works to those outside academia.
They are not without faults, and they have made choices I disagree with, but I respect all three of them, and Prof. Olsen in particular.
I guess you didn't see my edits because I made them more-or-less the same time you posted. Sorry. I'll move some of what I added to a new post.
Where are these Grey Elves going to come from? Nobody wants to leave the Girdle after Morgoth starts attacking everybody.
Another problem: The Sindar need to outnumber the Noldor, by a lot. Otherwise by the Third Age when the Noldor are mostly gone the Sindar will be... ???. But that is impossible if there are only enough to populate Doriath and the Falas, without tenements which of course isn't the intent.
And it's a plot point that Thingol and the Elves of Doriath despise the Noldor and want nothing to do with them, and never let any inside the Girdle except Finarfin's children. Why would a bunch of them decide to desert Thingol, to whom they swore allegiance, and swear fealty to Fingolfin or Finrod instead? It makes sense in the book, where they already lived in Hithlum and Dorthonion, and Fingolfin and Finrod acknowledged Thingol as High King of Beleriand. It won't work if his legitimate claim and all his people have always been strictly confined inside the Girdle of Doriath, for no reason, even before the Girdle was created.
Yes, if Melian decided for some reason not to lift the Sleep of Yavanna from the rest of Beleriand, and the Valar camping there during the War against Utumno also had no helpful effect, nobody would be able to live outside the Girdle. But. Then nobody can settle in Ossiriand or Nan Elmoth, the Ents have no reason to visit the rest of Beleriand, the Noldor can't live in Mithrim, and it'll take decades or more before it's feasible to settle Hithlum, Nevrast, East Beleriand, Tol Sirion, or Dorthonion...
But we do not have centuries. Gondolin was built in 64 and settled in 116. Unless the Hosts intend to change that too, which will in turn completely bollox up the story of Maeglin ...
And Nargothrond was settled in 102, and most of its people were Sindar.
We also will not have time to add any new stories to Season 4. We already have to cram 455 years of very important plot into 1 season, which we all know is impossible without doing violence to the book, but when MithLuin has tried to explain to the Hosts why this is a problem ... well I don't know what they said, but their decision is carved in stone. So we will not have room to add anything. We'll probably have to get rid of several more canonical stories, with goodness-knows what plot consequences.
I don't listen to the LotRO podcasts with anything resembling regularity, so I have never heard this statement. I certainly would not consider it a guiding philosophy of this project. Feel free to link the discussion in which this statement was made. Also, if you were to ask the hosts, they would say that none of the changes have been pointless. This one in particular comes from the fact that we already have a lot we are trying to squeeze into the Beleriand plot in this season, and keeping track of/explaining the existence of Sindarin elves that far north would take screen time. This would have been avoided by dealing with the Middle Earth prior to the return of Melkor before going over to the Valinor storyline, but it is too late to make that change now.
As to Galadriel being a Kinslayer, I remind you once again that this never was the case. At no point did anyone seriously contemplate allowing Galadriel to slay any of the Teleri. Not when the hosts discussed that episode, and not when we did.
This is a valid point, and one I will bring up, but there are certainly ways around it. Maybe not all of the Sindar are in lockstep with Thingol. Maybe a smaller percentage of the Sindar ride to war with the Noldor and are thus not as affected by casualties. As to confining everyone to the Girdle, I don't think it is that drastic. Just nobody in the north. Cirdan doesn't live in Doriath, after all. It is a change, certainly, but not one that is insurmountable.
Ok, fair, but 116 years is still enough time to get a large contingent of Sindarin elves up there. (Also, moving Gondolin later wouldn't actually mess up the Maeglin story line. It would just change the timeline a bit.)
I agree that this is an issue, and one we are fighting for. Thus far there has been no response to our attempts to push for a second season between this one and Beren and Luthien, but it is not something we have dropped. In between this season and next, I hope to be more proactive than in the past, and pass on to the hosts an episode outline for Season 4 that ends with the early onslaught of Glaurung. There is a tremendous amount of material to cover, and I feel that we need to pump the brakes a bit so we don't run into the very issues you are pointing out now.
I don't remember which one. It might have been one of the Red Maid walkthroughs (Lonelands?). Or maybe the Old Forest (Bree-land? Buckland?).
How do the Hosts think it's necessary to explain the Sindar living on the subcontinent they're native to? It's a subcontinent... with natives. I didn't imagine the existence of native Elves requires any explanation, other than, "they live there" and maybe "Melian and the Valar made it habitable." The Great March already explains why they're in Beleriand and how they got there.
Tuor can't be fostered by anyone but the Sindar without ruining his storyline. He needs to learn Sindarin, so he can talk to Voronwe who certainly does not speak Adunaic or Ulfangian. So, raised by Noldor or Edain? No, they're all dead or enslaved, and not teaching Elvish language classes. And it's a plot necessity that Gelmir and Arminas are the first Noldor he ever meets, and he has no idea where to find the Gate of the Noldor and therefore doesn't try hard enough to find it, delaying Ulmo's plans, which delay then is intricately linked to the Nargothrond and Turin plot, which is itself intricately and delicately put together and can't survive drastic changes...
He can't be raised by Falathrim. Then he'd be in the Mouths of Sirion, not in Hithlum, and would meet Voronwe before his doomed voyage in which Ulmo selected him as guide. And Tuor would never have found the livery of Nevrast...
He can't be raised in Doriath or he'd be Turin's childhood companion and that would screw up both their stories, in ways I don't want to contemplate.
Aredhel has to leave Gondolin before the Fourth Battle, while Celegorm and Curufin still live in Himlad. Maeglin needs at least 50 years to grow up, and several years to live in Gondolin itself and get deep into Turgon's councils, and turn his love/lust for Idril into bitterness, before the Fifth Battle. It won't be safe or plausible for them to travel to Gondolin from Nan Elmoth after the Fourth Battle. (Aredhel has to be banned from just traipsing through Doriath... by Thingol and the Iathrim, who despise the Noldor.)
Hurin and Huor need to visit Gondolin and meet Maeglin during the Fourth Battle. But they were also the first Mortals to meet Turgon, and Tuor the first and only one to serve him. So Gondolin can't be built after the Edain arrive in 310, unless Turgon for some reason bans Mortals from Nevrast, which would probably require a racist attitude opposite to his actual behavior...
Aredhel needs time to get bored in Gondolin, which should take many years or she looks really ... fickle and silly. So you could delay Gondolin until... maybe YS 200 at the latest. That gives her 100-150 years to get really sick of the place, to the point she'd rather live with an abuser than go back.
I don't disagree, but the hosts do. A disagreement does not mean that the person you disagree with has no point.
Again, I don't disagree. No one does. The point of contention is that if the hosts go the direction in which they currently are, another way will have to be found to put the Sindar in those places by then. Just because they aren't there right this second, does not mean they never will be.
What actually requires explanation is why the Sindar are afraid, unwilling, unable, or not allowed to live in Hithlum or Dorthonion.
I can't see any way to migrate a new tribe of Sindar there without creating yet more logical plot holes and cascading problems. Nor justifying why they are afraid/unwilling to live there to begin with, without yet more plot holes. And doing so in Season 4?
CRT put a lot of effort into making the 1977 Silm internally consistent, and changes can't be made except very carefully, with long consideration of every possible consequence. Like Gimli says of Aglarond: "a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day". Otherwise the entire thing will collapse like a house of cards. It certainly can't stand up to a huge plot-rewriting change every 3-4 episodes.
Alright, sorry for misunderstanding. Swings her sword at them and misses, was their initial request? They haven't yet approved the suggested changes that she does not try to kill Teleri. Have they... ever allowed a change suggested by the forumites, after they made a Final Decision?
I agree that the change is a mistake. I am just a bit more confident, perhaps from a bit more experience on this collaborative project, that we can work around this issue.
No swinging and missing was in the initial request. The original request was that she raise her sword, but realize that she is about to do something wrong and not swing it. I'm really not sure where the "swing and miss" idea is coming from.
If you catch up with all of Season 1, you will find that they do indeed reconsider some of their decisions, as they were going over our script outlines.
And if there are "too many Elves" and whole tribes "must" be eliminated, the Hosts won't allow you to add new tribes, even canon ones, later on.
And your outline above already has northeastern Elves in East Beleriand; why are those not forbidden but the Mithrim are forbidden? How are they able to survive in the Sleep of Yavanna, with nothing to eat? How are the Dwarves and Green Elves alive either, if Orome didn't already awaken the land on the entire Great March route? How are the Hosts making these decisions?
Then the only possible hope for this project not to collapse into an incoherent mess over the premature ruins of Gondolin, is this suggestion/plea: to write plot outlines in which all of Beleriand has growing plant life and is inhabitable. And put native Elves in Hithlum. With no time taken to explain them, because none is needed (except in an aside note to the Hosts). And then insist the Mithrim (and the plants they eat) stay there, and explain in detail (perhaps in a note to the plot outline, since there would not be time or space in a podcast chat box) why removing them will destroy the entire Gondolin plotline, and consequently, Earendil's plot too. And without Tuor and Earendil the whole project would be ... futile. Pointless.
And then be ready to do that again, in the face of the next plot-destroying change. And the next one after that.
You might be making a bit too much of this.
Separate names with a comma.