S03E06 Script Discussion
- Thread starter Nicholas Palazzo
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
It's not at stake. We can make it work.
How, without creating more plot holes?
If you try to fix this in Season 4, or in Tuor's season, and can't, it will be too late to fix.
I think this is a time to beg the Hosts to change their minds. About Mithrim, Tuor, and the Sleep of Yavanna. Before the whole season is carved in stone.
If you try to fix this in Season 4, or in Tuor's season, and can't, it will be too late to fix.
I think this is a time to beg the Hosts to change their minds. About Mithrim, Tuor, and the Sleep of Yavanna. Before the whole season is carved in stone.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
We have done that on multiple occasions.
Faelivrin, I get the impression that we are creating some frustration here, and no doubt part of it is because you feel the disconnect between your expression of ideas and the conversations of the Hosts keenly. I admire your enthusiasm to participate, and I know that there is a lot to catch up on - you have access to the forums only, at this point, not the podcasts for Season 3, because - we all have real lives and do this on the side as a hobby. I get that.
The current flow of information is ungainly and fraught with potential misunderstandings, and I ask that you be patient with that. Right now, the process (for everyone) looks like this:
1) The Hosts propose questions to focus on for an upcoming episode.
2) Over the following 2 weeks (or so), we discuss these topics on the messageboards, brainstorming ideas and coming up with potential fixes to the problems that we see.
3) I gather the information from the Messageboard discussions, compile it into a Powerpoint, and submit it to the Hosts, usually the night before. (In prior seasons [1 and 2], Phillip Menzies gathered input from the Messageboard and conveyed that to the Hosts.)
4) During the podcast ("Sessions"), the Hosts, acting in the role of Executive Producers, discuss their thoughts on the Episode in question. They have about 2 1/2 hours to cover everything they want to, and then move on to the next episode in the following session. Naturally, they don't touch on everything. Sometimes they enthusiastically pick up ideas from the messageboard and live participants...other times, they veto our ideas and go in their own directions. As executive producers, they have veto power over any ideas that they do not like. They can reconsider later, but the decisions are theirs in the end.
5) The podcasts and Powerpoint are posted for future reference, and so that those who are unable to participate live can catch up at a later date. In earlier seasons, there are session notes posted as a summary of what was discussed.
And in your case....
6) You can raise questions on the messageboards, asking about decisions the Hosts made in the podcasts.
7) Those who have listened to the Sessions can reply, giving you their take on the Hosts' discussion.
8) Then, we hold these script discussions hosted by Nick. Everyone is invited to participate while they happen, but realistically, few people have the time/availability for that. So, Nick records them, and then posts them on YouTube later for people to follow.
9) I make an outline, summarizing the scenes we discussed in the script discussion.
10) You can read the outline, and raise questions.
11) At this point, either Nick or I then addresses your question in light of: our own 3-4 hour discussion of the episode, the Hosts' 2 1/2 hour discussion of the episode, and all prior discussions of earlier episodes (which naturally includes allusions to decisions that you are not aware of). I think this is the step that is causing the biggest sticking point.
12) At some point, the outlines get polished up and elaborated on, and then submitted to the Hosts for review. This can happen during the Season or at the end - it's up to them how many Sessions they want to devote to the review process.
It is safe to say that somewhere in all of that, some nuance and explanation might have been lost. If someone walked up to me and said, "No Sindar in Mithrim"...I would want to know WHY. What lead to that decision? And so I understand why your reaction to news of decisions is to look for more detail, and naturally to consider the impact on the story. But as someone who has listened to the podcasts, I know that this question has come up multiple times, and that Haakon has asked repeatedly for Sindar elves to be present in the north, and every time that idea was decisively shot down. It is quite clear that Corey Olsen does not want Sindar in Mithrim during Season 3. And he *does* give reasons for these thoughts - it's not arbitrary, and it is part of how he considers conveying Beleriand to the audience. He's not ready for Mithrim yet, nor is he ready to introduce a group of elves that is seemingly yet another independent group not associated with Círdan or Doriath. Thingol's knowledge of the north at this time is meant to be very limited. But hearing a summary from me based on what I recall of that discussion is probably not as satisfying as listening to that discussion yourself and forming your own opinion.
I don't want this process to be frustrating. This is meant to be a project that is for fun. If only having partial information without explanations is going to upset you, then I would suggest abandoning the earlier seasons, and jump right in with the CURRENT podcasts. That way, you will feel much more in the loop, you will hear the Hosts address your questions as they come up, and you will likely find the delay of information much less frustrating. You have expressed some pretty strong opinions here, and the Hosts HAVE addressed some of the issues that you specifically raised in their podcasts. They spent time on the character arc of Galadriel and her role in the episode with the kinslaying, and they spent time discussing the impact of the Sleep of Yavanna on Beleriand prior to the rising of the Sun. I know it must seem as though they are ignoring your concerns, but that is only because you have not heard their replies. Trust me, they *do* take our thoughts into account, and they are working towards making this a good adaptation.
Are they perfect? No, of course not. None of us have any experience in producing a TV show. I will not say that no one here has any experience in film or theater, as that is not true, but in actually producing a TV show? No, we're all amateurs/academics having fun. Some decisions are less-than-ideal. But when you adapt, you have to *make* the decision. You have to make choices in how you will tell a story, and all choices have consequences. That is what they are doing. For a collaborative project, those who are not the executive producers do need to understand that we can't make the final call. We can either accept the decisions that were made, or rebel, or walk away. Knowing how to choose your battles, and when to give them up is important for maintaining peace of mind. And that's a really tough call when you aren't listening to the discussion yourself to judge how 'fixed' something is.
If you are not able to listen to even the current podcasts, then at the very least I would ask that you understand that content is being lost in the unwieldy back-and-forth in which you are asking your questions here and getting second-hand answers. Because of that, jumping to the conclusion that people (who are investing a ton of time in this project) do not care about the source material or are not bothering to think things through would be grossly unfair, don't you think? Assuming that the worst possible outcome will be the result is one way of doing damage control, I suppose, but it sounds like unfounded hysteria.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost?
You are collecting nails, and lamenting kingdoms. Will there be a potential loss to the story if the Sindarin elves of Mithrim are not present in Season 3? Yes. Does this mean that we cannot have Sindarin elves in Mithrim in later seasons? No. Turgon has Sindar and Noldor followers at Nevrast who become the elves of Gondolin. Is there really any reason that that is different from Fingolfin having Sindarin subjects in Mithrim? Does this mean that there is no Annael? No. Does this irrevocably ruin Tuor's story (and thus somehow prevent Earendil?) NO.
I was on Tolkien messageboards in 1999 in the wake of the news that they were making a film of Lord of the Rings. I do remember how some people reacted to the news. Some people, for whatever reason, loved Peter Jackson's previous body of work, and so would defend him no matter what news came out about the projects. It was somewhat ridiculous to have to think that ALL of his decisions were going to be golden. But there were also people who went in the opposite direction. Any *lack* of news meant dire things for the project. Because the casting call for Eowyn went out prior to the casting call for Eomer, it was assumed by some people that Eomer's character had been cut and that he wouldn't be in the films. They were serious enough about this to start an internet petition to Peter Jackson to save Eomer and give Eowyn her brother. That fear...proved unfounded, though no one could disprove it until the later casting call went out. There were also people who disliked everything Peter Jackson did, and so no matter what news came out, they concluded that he was going to have F-15s bomb Mordor, because there was no proof that he *wouldn't* do that.
I am not accusing you of F-15s - thinking the worst of those behind the project, and not trusting them to make decisions that are consistent with the story. I do think, though, that there are some Eomer-petitions in here, and I think that lack of news isn't making this any easier for you. Ultimately, it's up to you what you want to get out of (and put into) this project. I've decided the process is worthwhile, but to each his own, and I don't expect this to be everyone's cup of tea.
The current flow of information is ungainly and fraught with potential misunderstandings, and I ask that you be patient with that. Right now, the process (for everyone) looks like this:
1) The Hosts propose questions to focus on for an upcoming episode.
2) Over the following 2 weeks (or so), we discuss these topics on the messageboards, brainstorming ideas and coming up with potential fixes to the problems that we see.
3) I gather the information from the Messageboard discussions, compile it into a Powerpoint, and submit it to the Hosts, usually the night before. (In prior seasons [1 and 2], Phillip Menzies gathered input from the Messageboard and conveyed that to the Hosts.)
4) During the podcast ("Sessions"), the Hosts, acting in the role of Executive Producers, discuss their thoughts on the Episode in question. They have about 2 1/2 hours to cover everything they want to, and then move on to the next episode in the following session. Naturally, they don't touch on everything. Sometimes they enthusiastically pick up ideas from the messageboard and live participants...other times, they veto our ideas and go in their own directions. As executive producers, they have veto power over any ideas that they do not like. They can reconsider later, but the decisions are theirs in the end.
5) The podcasts and Powerpoint are posted for future reference, and so that those who are unable to participate live can catch up at a later date. In earlier seasons, there are session notes posted as a summary of what was discussed.
And in your case....
6) You can raise questions on the messageboards, asking about decisions the Hosts made in the podcasts.
7) Those who have listened to the Sessions can reply, giving you their take on the Hosts' discussion.
8) Then, we hold these script discussions hosted by Nick. Everyone is invited to participate while they happen, but realistically, few people have the time/availability for that. So, Nick records them, and then posts them on YouTube later for people to follow.
9) I make an outline, summarizing the scenes we discussed in the script discussion.
10) You can read the outline, and raise questions.
11) At this point, either Nick or I then addresses your question in light of: our own 3-4 hour discussion of the episode, the Hosts' 2 1/2 hour discussion of the episode, and all prior discussions of earlier episodes (which naturally includes allusions to decisions that you are not aware of). I think this is the step that is causing the biggest sticking point.
12) At some point, the outlines get polished up and elaborated on, and then submitted to the Hosts for review. This can happen during the Season or at the end - it's up to them how many Sessions they want to devote to the review process.
It is safe to say that somewhere in all of that, some nuance and explanation might have been lost. If someone walked up to me and said, "No Sindar in Mithrim"...I would want to know WHY. What lead to that decision? And so I understand why your reaction to news of decisions is to look for more detail, and naturally to consider the impact on the story. But as someone who has listened to the podcasts, I know that this question has come up multiple times, and that Haakon has asked repeatedly for Sindar elves to be present in the north, and every time that idea was decisively shot down. It is quite clear that Corey Olsen does not want Sindar in Mithrim during Season 3. And he *does* give reasons for these thoughts - it's not arbitrary, and it is part of how he considers conveying Beleriand to the audience. He's not ready for Mithrim yet, nor is he ready to introduce a group of elves that is seemingly yet another independent group not associated with Círdan or Doriath. Thingol's knowledge of the north at this time is meant to be very limited. But hearing a summary from me based on what I recall of that discussion is probably not as satisfying as listening to that discussion yourself and forming your own opinion.
I don't want this process to be frustrating. This is meant to be a project that is for fun. If only having partial information without explanations is going to upset you, then I would suggest abandoning the earlier seasons, and jump right in with the CURRENT podcasts. That way, you will feel much more in the loop, you will hear the Hosts address your questions as they come up, and you will likely find the delay of information much less frustrating. You have expressed some pretty strong opinions here, and the Hosts HAVE addressed some of the issues that you specifically raised in their podcasts. They spent time on the character arc of Galadriel and her role in the episode with the kinslaying, and they spent time discussing the impact of the Sleep of Yavanna on Beleriand prior to the rising of the Sun. I know it must seem as though they are ignoring your concerns, but that is only because you have not heard their replies. Trust me, they *do* take our thoughts into account, and they are working towards making this a good adaptation.
Are they perfect? No, of course not. None of us have any experience in producing a TV show. I will not say that no one here has any experience in film or theater, as that is not true, but in actually producing a TV show? No, we're all amateurs/academics having fun. Some decisions are less-than-ideal. But when you adapt, you have to *make* the decision. You have to make choices in how you will tell a story, and all choices have consequences. That is what they are doing. For a collaborative project, those who are not the executive producers do need to understand that we can't make the final call. We can either accept the decisions that were made, or rebel, or walk away. Knowing how to choose your battles, and when to give them up is important for maintaining peace of mind. And that's a really tough call when you aren't listening to the discussion yourself to judge how 'fixed' something is.
If you are not able to listen to even the current podcasts, then at the very least I would ask that you understand that content is being lost in the unwieldy back-and-forth in which you are asking your questions here and getting second-hand answers. Because of that, jumping to the conclusion that people (who are investing a ton of time in this project) do not care about the source material or are not bothering to think things through would be grossly unfair, don't you think? Assuming that the worst possible outcome will be the result is one way of doing damage control, I suppose, but it sounds like unfounded hysteria.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost?
You are collecting nails, and lamenting kingdoms. Will there be a potential loss to the story if the Sindarin elves of Mithrim are not present in Season 3? Yes. Does this mean that we cannot have Sindarin elves in Mithrim in later seasons? No. Turgon has Sindar and Noldor followers at Nevrast who become the elves of Gondolin. Is there really any reason that that is different from Fingolfin having Sindarin subjects in Mithrim? Does this mean that there is no Annael? No. Does this irrevocably ruin Tuor's story (and thus somehow prevent Earendil?) NO.
I was on Tolkien messageboards in 1999 in the wake of the news that they were making a film of Lord of the Rings. I do remember how some people reacted to the news. Some people, for whatever reason, loved Peter Jackson's previous body of work, and so would defend him no matter what news came out about the projects. It was somewhat ridiculous to have to think that ALL of his decisions were going to be golden. But there were also people who went in the opposite direction. Any *lack* of news meant dire things for the project. Because the casting call for Eowyn went out prior to the casting call for Eomer, it was assumed by some people that Eomer's character had been cut and that he wouldn't be in the films. They were serious enough about this to start an internet petition to Peter Jackson to save Eomer and give Eowyn her brother. That fear...proved unfounded, though no one could disprove it until the later casting call went out. There were also people who disliked everything Peter Jackson did, and so no matter what news came out, they concluded that he was going to have F-15s bomb Mordor, because there was no proof that he *wouldn't* do that.
I am not accusing you of F-15s - thinking the worst of those behind the project, and not trusting them to make decisions that are consistent with the story. I do think, though, that there are some Eomer-petitions in here, and I think that lack of news isn't making this any easier for you. Ultimately, it's up to you what you want to get out of (and put into) this project. I've decided the process is worthwhile, but to each his own, and I don't expect this to be everyone's cup of tea.
I suggested Gamil Brôg. ('Old Bear')
Done what?
How? Every time Haakon asked if they could exist, the Execs shot him down. They have declared they will not allow any Sindar to exist in the North. How will you convince them to change their minds -- will they listen to you more than Haakon?
How will we get Sindar to move there without creating the plot holes I pointed out? How will we fit an entirely new migration story into Season 4, which already will have to cut canon stories out?
How will the story explain why the Sindar have been unwilling to live in Hithlum for thousands of years? If the answer is that Hithlum is uninhabitable due to the Sleep of Yavanna, how will we explain how Green Elves and Dwarves survived?
Does anyone have a concrete plan to address each of these questions? Or only a formless faith that somehow it can be fixed in some later season, and we don't need to worry about it at all right now?
I don't think it's fair to accuse me of being hysterical just because I have said that these problems need to be solved, not put off. I am quite calm, just sad.
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I think Corey wanted the Sindar to live away from Angband and the movements of Morgoth’s people. Yes he said he didn’t want the elves to go north from Doriath at a certain point in time and didn’t want elves living too far north either - but I think we now have established stray elves being killed by Boldog’s army northeast of Doriath, so I’m pretty sure we can argue for Sindar in Mithrim. In fact, I’m one hundred percent certain that we can do it.
Corey Olsen wants there not to be Sindar in Mithrim YET. That does not mean there won't be some there soon. He wanted to make sure the Sindar storyline wasn't too complicated with too many locations as we were introducing them. There is a reason Haakon kept bringing it up - it's probably not *that* necessary to oversimplify the story, and wanting them to be far from Angband does not have to equal no elves in the north.
We will not need a full-scale migration story. We've currently got Círdan's people all up and down the coast. Once the Noldor are in Mithrim, it will not be at all difficult to justify other elves being there too.
Mithrim is not uninhabitable. We have agreed that the Sleep of Yavanna is *not* in effect after the Awakening of the Elves.
My accusation of the APPEARANCE of hysteria is because there seemed to be a tendency of run-away what-ifs to the way you were were raising concerns. To go from "No Sindar in Mithrim right now" to "Guess Earendil can't be in our story" was a pretty run-away train. Sorry if you did not appreciate that observation; I suppose I could have worded it more kindly.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Mithrim is definitely not uninhabitable. I don't think anyone was actually suggesting it was, there was just some disagreement over how to reconcile the Sleep with habitability.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member