S04E06 Script Discussion

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Gwilwileth's dialogue is supposed to be awkward. I imagine Thuringwethil choosing to play her as fairly socially awkward, emotionally distraught, and not very bright so her reveal that Feanor burned the ships is not so out of character.

Thuringwethil also isn't carrying out her deception perfectly since Cirdan becomes suspicious of her at the end. I want the viewers to be annoyed that Cirdan isn't figuring out who Gwilwileth really is throughout the episode to further throw them off the trail of Angrod actually being Mairon.
I think she may also come across as a little rude if she just dashes off in the middle of a conversation with Cirdan.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I think she may also come across as a little rude if she just dashes off in the middle of a conversation with Cirdan.
I think it is okay if she does. She doesn't want to explain yet her cover story about her husband's death. Exactly how rude she seems can depend on how the scene is staged, i.e., how much Talagand is struggling with the crates.

The top scene would be rude; the bottom would not.
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I think it is okay if she does. She doesn't want to explain yet her cover story about her husband's death. Exactly how rude she seems can depend on how the scene is staged, i.e., how much Talagand is struggling with the crates.

The top scene would be rude; the bottom would not.
View attachment 2372
I'm not sure I agree that there is a non-rude way to stop one conversation with one person to begin one with another without at least acknowledging the first person.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
GWILWILETH
Please. I beg you not to make me relive those moments. The grief is still too near for me to bear. Perhaps I shall speak of it to you, but not now.
I'd be careful about reusing the "grief is still too near" line too many times. Granted, I can only recall one other incidence off the top of my head, so take this with a grain of salt.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member

I'd be careful about reusing the "grief is still too near" line too many times. Granted, I can only recall one other incidence off the top of my head, so take this with a grain of salt.
Thuringwethil watched Turgon deliver this exact line to Cirdan in Episode 4. That's why I had her use it now.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
GWILWILETH
I did tell you that I was alone.
(Suddenly, she grasps Círdan’s hands, which he had laying on the table in front of him, and holds them, trembling.)
His hands ... I-I remember holding his hands so cold until there was no life left in them.
(Suddenly, she realizes what she has done and gasps.)
I am so sorry, lord. I did not mean to ...
So, this might just be me, but it kinda looks a bit like she's using her feminine wiles here. That may not be intentional, but I'm pretty sure it will read that way on screen.

Thuringwethil watched Turgon deliver this exact line to Cirdan in Episode 4. That's why I had her use it now.
All the more reason for her to not repeat it that way, though. It's a bit obvious, and lacking in the subtlety that Thuringwethil should demonstrate, IMHO.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
CÍRDAN
Thou art quite alright, Gwilwileth. I understand that a sudden wave of grief struck thee with the memory. I am very sorry for thy husband’s death.

I do kind of get the irony of my pointing this out, but could it not come across a bit "mansplainy" for Cirdan to tell Gwilwileth what she is feeling here?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
ANGROD
Test the strength of the bars on the window.
Edhellos goes over to the small window in their cell and checks the bars.
EDHELLOS
I cannot bend them nor loose them from the stone without a tool of some kind.
ANGROD
The same is true of the door. Who – or what – ever built this cell knew what they were doing, though it surpriseth me that we were not taken below ground.
EDHELLOS
We may count our blessings for now. While we are above ground, there is hope of rescue. I think not all of our guards were slain in the attack, and they will bear the news of our capture back to Finrod and Aegnor.

A lot of this is information that absolutely must be conveyed to the audience if we are to believe that these two have not yet given up hope. However, both they and the audience can see that their efforts are unsuccessful and deduce that they cannot bend or loose the bars, nor force the door. I would say that you could safely cut most of the verbal descriptions of what they are doing.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
CARANTHIR
Who are ye and what business have ye in Dor Caranthir, stunted people?
TELCHAR
(finishing her sentence)
- Elves.
CARANTHIR
Ah, ye speak the language of the Dark Elves. Who are ye and what business have ye in Dor Caranthir, stunted people?
Of course, if you found yourself confronted with a person who hadn't understood your last statement, but did understand a language you knew, you would certainly repeat that statement verbatim (or as near to as possible). It's important to remember though, that the audience has understood both times (once through subtitles). One way to fix this would be leave Caranthir's initial statement unsubtitled, another would be to change it slightly.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I love the development of the Cirdan/Thuringwethil plot. This though:

CÍRDAN
I am fine. But Olwë ... I recognized his work. Those ships were the finest ships I have ever seen. They must have been ... like the Silmarils to him.

Prior to the 20th century, I think that saying someone was "fine" would have meant only that they were of high quality (e.g. "these fine gentlemen). The good news is that because we can see that he hasn't jumped into the sea, we already know that he's more or less ok (or thinks he is), and don't really need to point it out.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Oh, a quick thing on the matter of the brooch which Turgon gave Cirdan. I'm not really a fashion guy, but isn't a brooch used to hold a cloak together? When he puts it on, is it over another one, which continues to hold the garment fast when the brooch is removed? It's a small detail, just one that pulled me out for a moment.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
CÍRDAN
Who did you hear it from?

Maybe "From whom did you hear it?" would be more appropriate? Not that we need to be sticklers for not ending a sentence on a preposition, but this is Cirdan, and it doesn't really cost us much. :)
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I love the development of the Cirdan/Thuringwethil plot. This though:


Prior to the 20th century, I think that saying someone was "fine" would have meant only that they were of high quality (e.g. "these fine gentlemen). The good news is that because we can see that he hasn't jumped into the sea, we already know that he's more or less ok (or thinks he is), and don't really need to point it out.

Oh, I'd forgotten something about this one. Cirdan seems fairly quick to equate the ships to the Silmarils. I can see how he might be trying to put it in terms Gwilwileth understands, but I'm still not certain he would make that connection in such a short time. He has never even seen the Silmarils, after all. Perhaps he might say something to the effect of, "They must have been precious to him beyond all price. A work that could be accomplished only once."
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
CÍRDAN
- Would never allow such a thing to happen, so there must have been violence.
(horrified at the conclusion he has come to)
They must have forced the mariners from the ships in order to steal them. It was a kin ... betrayal. Fëanor and his sons betrayed the Teleri just as they betrayed Fingolfin’s host on the Helcaraxë.

I can see here that we are trying to get as close as possible to the word "kinslaying". I'm not sure it works, though.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
But ye said nothing of this. And yet ye warned my people against interacting with the Sons of Fëanor. Telling us the reason for your enmity would have been far more reasonable. Ye had no cause to defend the Sons of Fëanor in that way, unless ... ye were also defending yourselves.
One might say "protect" or "shield" rather than "defend" here. Defense is a somewhat broader term, including connotations which may not be what we're seeking.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member

Just a note about this. First, Thuringwethil unceremoniously leaves the conversation with Cirdan, and rushes off to randomly help a random passerby, giving him essentially the same introduction that she gave Cirdan. Now, you may have intended for her to appear to be awkwardly trying to appear helpful in an attempt to curry favor with her hosts, in which case, this is spot on. I'm not certain that awkward is the note we want to be hitting here, though.

Ok, so in looking this over again, I guess I'm just unclear as to why we need the dialogue with Cirdan at all. She can easily have the same conversation with Talagand, resolving the repetition issue, and he can call up to Cirdan, who has been observing them from the deck, asking if there is room for another.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
The only other note I have is on the final scene between Cirdan and Gwilwileth. As I understood it, our aim was to depict Noldo!Thuringwethil as so fearful of the other Noldor, that she will not give further information about the specifics of the crimes of the Noldor until she is safe in Menegroth, and that is why Cirdan feels safe leaving her there. In this version, first, she is concerned that the information she was initially reluctant to give will not be passed on (which seems a rookie mistake), then she thinks Cirdan will release her because she isn't fond of forests and is only saved because of the fortuitous appearance of the eclipse.
 

Octoburn

Active Member
Hi again!

I am almost done with the podcasts for season 3 (listening to 3-24 right now) and read this script a few days ago. I plan to be all the way caught up before the next review session, but I'm not sure it'll happen.

Outside of a few things that jarred me, due to being waaay behind, and jumping in at episode 6 rather than the beginning, the story is really solid. I love the Twilwileth (?) twist.

I only have two true issues with the script, but it probably is something that runs through the series. One is more personal taste, while the other is a non-issue for this project.

A. The dialogue is a bit jarring in places. I don't recall if this was an overall stylistic decision, or something that was meant to differentiate the languages, but the "thees" and "thous" really distract me, personally. Again, that's more personal taste I suppose.

B. This is the one that's likely a non-issue for the project (but should be an issue if the writer wants to be a screenwriter). If you sent this to an agent or production company,three words you would see a lot in the feedback is "blocks of text." In both the dialogue and the action. A lot of readers will just stop reading a screenplay if they see that a quarter of the page is one paragraph of action or dialogue. I try to break my action up into what I think a shot would be on film. Monologues are good, but too many long sections of one person talking can be a real downer for a reader.
Overall, I do really enjoy it, and look forward to perhaps participating in the review session next time.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Hi again!

I am almost done with the podcasts for season 3 (listening to 3-24 right now) and read this script a few days ago. I plan to be all the way caught up before the next review session, but I'm not sure it'll happen.

Outside of a few things that jarred me, due to being waaay behind, and jumping in at episode 6 rather than the beginning, the story is really solid. I love the Twilwileth (?) twist.

I only have two true issues with the script, but it probably is something that runs through the series. One is more personal taste, while the other is a non-issue for this project.

A. The dialogue is a bit jarring in places. I don't recall if this was an overall stylistic decision, or something that was meant to differentiate the languages, but the "thees" and "thous" really distract me, personally. Again, that's more personal taste I suppose.

B. This is the one that's likely a non-issue for the project (but should be an issue if the writer wants to be a screenwriter). If you sent this to an agent or production company,three words you would see a lot in the feedback is "blocks of text." In both the dialogue and the action. A lot of readers will just stop reading a screenplay if they see that a quarter of the page is one paragraph of action or dialogue. I try to break my action up into what I think a shot would be on film. Monologues are good, but too many long sections of one person talking can be a real downer for a reader.
Overall, I do really enjoy it, and look forward to perhaps participating in the review session next time.
Thank you so much for the feedback! If you don't already know, the next session will be this Thursday (Nov. 14), and we will be discussing Episodes 8 and 9. The most important thing you need to know if you are not caught up is that Angrod is a very important character and should not be killed off in the Dagor Aglareb. :)

A. The style of dialogue has been discussed at various points, but nothing was officially decided on. When I began writing the scripts, I decided to go wit the "thees" and "thous" for two main reasons. First, I wanted to be able to lift dialogue directly from both the published Silmarillion and Tolkien's older writings without modernizing it. Second, since this project will cover thousands of years of history, we can show how the language develops over time.

B. When writing the scripts, I have tried to keep in mind that there won't be any actual shooting done based on them, so I have tried to avoid making them choppy by breaking them into lots of individual shots. That said, I do tend to write with fewer large paragraph rather than more smaller paragraphs, which is something I can work to improve.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Thank you so much for the feedback! If you don't already know, the next session will be this Thursday (Nov. 14), and we will be discussing Episodes 8 and 9. The most important thing you need to know if you are not caught up is that Angrod is a very important character and should not be killed off in the Dagor Aglareb. :)

A. The style of dialogue has been discussed at various points, but nothing was officially decided on. When I began writing the scripts, I decided to go wit the "thees" and "thous" for two main reasons. First, I wanted to be able to lift dialogue directly from both the published Silmarillion and Tolkien's older writings without modernizing it. Second, since this project will cover thousands of years of history, we can show how the language develops over time.

B. When writing the scripts, I have tried to keep in mind that there won't be any actual shooting done based on them, so I have tried to avoid making them choppy by breaking them into lots of individual shots. That said, I do tend to write with fewer large paragraph rather than more smaller paragraphs, which is something I can work to improve.
As far as Tolkien’s writing goes, The Children of Hurin, which was mostly finalized later, doesn’t have as many “thees“ and “thous”. Do you think he tried to modernize it a bit?
 
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