S04E06 Script Discussion

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Oh... Finrod had Amarie? I totally forgot about that! I somehow had already theorized that Finrod was a closet Homosexual and his "son" Findobar was actually his partner ("Son" being used as a kind of euphemism by the noldor who have the "we know but don't talk about it" attitude)... don't ask me how i came to THAT headcanon theory:cool:! But i see i was wrong anyway, as Findobar/Finbor was Fingon's son, not Finrods... damn i always confuse these names!
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The line about Finrod walking with his father Finarfin in Valinor after his death actually included 'and Amarië,' but that got edited out in the published Silmarillion, were she's only mentioned in the conversation when Galadriel asks about Finrod marrying, and he says he won't. So, understandable that people forget about her, but the intention seems to have been for her and Finrod to get married after his death and resurrection.

I doubt Tolkien wrote any of his characters as closet homosexuals. That being said...he certainly does have Maedhros remain unmarried and send gifts to his good buddy Fingon for no reason.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I doubt Tolkien wrote any of his characters as closet homosexuals. That being said...he certainly does have Maedhros remain unmarried and send gifts to his good buddy Fingon for no reason.
Not to open a can of worms, but I have questions about any confirmed bachelors in a society with an ironclad heteronormative bias. Misters Baggins for instance. (Or my dad's late bachelor uncle who passed in his 80s in 1992)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The line about Finrod walking with his father Finarfin in Valinor after his death actually included 'and Amarië,' but that got edited out in the published Silmarillion, were she's only mentioned in the conversation when Galadriel asks about Finrod marrying, and he says he won't. So, understandable that people forget about her, but the intention seems to have been for her and Finrod to get married after his death and resurrection.

I doubt Tolkien wrote any of his characters as closet homosexuals. That being said...he certainly does have Maedhros remain unmarried and send gifts to his good buddy Fingon for no reason.
Not to mention that Elves typically don’t engage in intimate relations when they’re closer than second cousins, unless you’re Maeglin; he didn’t succeed, but he tried.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Actually...half-cousins isn't incest, either. First cousins are right out, of course (so Maeglin/Idril isn't okay), but half-first-cousins would be acceptable.

So, for instance, if Aredhel had been interested in, say, her half-cousin Celegorm...there's nothing in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar' that would have forbidden that union.

Just pointing out that whatever other taboos are in play, incest isn't an issue when talking about Fingon and Maedhros.

And, for the record, there are reasons to remain a bachelor/spinster beyond one's sexuality. Oftentimes, there is a certain amount of independence and financial control that comes from...not being married. I can understand why that question would be raised, but of course the matter isn't that simple, either. And, in both Bilbo's and Frodo's cases...the freedom to go off on adventures is certainly meant to be part of the reason they never married.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Oh, yes, I'm not saying I have answers, only questions. :)

(I have other factors to consider for my late great-uncle beyond simple bachelorhood.)
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
The line about Finrod walking with his father Finarfin in Valinor after his death actually included 'and Amarië,' but that got edited out in the published Silmarillion, were she's only mentioned in the conversation when Galadriel asks about Finrod marrying, and he says he won't. So, understandable that people forget about her, but the intention seems to have been for her and Finrod to get married after his death and resurrection.

I doubt Tolkien wrote any of his characters as closet homosexuals. That being said...he certainly does have Maedhros remain unmarried and send gifts to his good buddy Fingon for no reason.
Well, there's a little possible indication about Salgant.. but that is really all i could think of. I really wasn't refering to what he intended to write but what my personal biased interpretation was..

I really think that Bilbo and Frodo stayed bachelors because.. well because they were a bit odd and difficult characters really... both have a bit of an asexual air about them... it probably just wasn't easy for them to find somebody who could deal with their exceptional choices of life..

Its ... well... "he was unmarried" always was, where i come from and especially among older folk, a bit of a code for "he was gay, we know it, but it wasn't open and we don't talk aout it" -especially when it was about men who were in every other aspect totally accepted and well integrated in their community-... that's where my "personal theory" was fed by probably...
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
The line about Finrod walking with his father Finarfin in Valinor after his death actually included 'and Amarië,' but that got edited out in the published Silmarillion, were she's only mentioned in the conversation when Galadriel asks about Finrod marrying, and he says he won't. So, understandable that people forget about her, but the intention seems to have been for her and Finrod to get married after his death and resurrection.

I doubt Tolkien wrote any of his characters as closet homosexuals. That being said...he certainly does have Maedhros remain unmarried and send gifts to his good buddy Fingon for no reason.
People can read relationships in The Silmarillion as homosexual if they wish, but I think we should make it clear that there can exist extremely close friendships without a romantic dimension, like what C. S. Lewis calls "Philia" in The Four Loves.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
@Rhiannon So, I read over this one more closely. I do have some notes, to which I will get to soon, but I wanted first to point out that everything from the tag forward is spot-on.

I have but one issue. In moving the eclipse montage to join it more closely to the Hildorien shot, it somewhat exacerbates the issue of the episode timeline. We see the eclipse end (which I presume is so that when Sauron and Thuringwethil are talking, it isn't still supposed to be in effect), but then go back to during the eclipse for the montage. The eclipse ends once more during the montage, then we return to it (I realize this is a location jump rather than a time jump, but the audience may not pick up on that).

Returning the montage to its original place solves that issue (Bombadil can still be the end of the sequence). Have the sun start to peak out for Bombadil. When we do the scene with Morgoth, he is "returning" the sun to the Men of Hildorien, so the eclipse will be closer to its end.

Will someone still be on YouTube pointing out the inconsistency of Thuringwethil making it back to Angband in the minutes it takes an eclipse to end, sure. But as you say, it is a different location, and of course no one really knows how an eclipse would work in a flat earth anyway. Ultimately, I'd rather make certain that we don't jar most viewers with what appears to be multiple jumps back in time.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
@Rhiannon So, I read over this one more closely. I do have some notes, to which I will get to soon, but I wanted first to point out that everything from the tag forward is spot-on.

I have but one issue. In moving the eclipse montage to join it more closely to the Hildorien shot, it somewhat exacerbates the issue of the episode timeline. We see the eclipse end (which I presume is so that when Sauron and Thuringwethil are talking, it isn't still supposed to be in effect), but then go back to during the eclipse for the montage. The eclipse ends once more during the montage, then we return to it (I realize this is a location jump rather than a time jump, but the audience may not pick up on that).

Returning the montage to its original place solves that issue (Bombadil can still be the end of the sequence). Have the sun start to peak out for Bombadil. When we do the scene with Morgoth, he is "returning" the sun to the Men of Hildorien, so the eclipse will be closer to its end.

Will someone still be on YouTube pointing out the inconsistency of Thuringwethil making it back to Angband in the minutes it takes an eclipse to end, sure. But as you say, it is a different location, and of course no one really knows how an eclipse would work in a flat earth anyway. Ultimately, I'd rather make certain that we don't jar most viewers with what appears to be multiple jumps back in time.
Alright. I'll put the montage minus Morgoth between Thuringwethil flying away from the ship and the scene of her talking with Mairon, by which point the eclipse will have been gone for some time.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Alright. I'll put the montage minus Morgoth between Thuringwethil flying away from the ship and the scene of her talking with Mairon, by which point the eclipse will have been gone for some time.
Yeah, I'm less concerned about a mid-credits scene looking a bit like a time jump than a part of the actual episode.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
CÍRDAN
Of course thou mayst come with us, Gwilwileth. Thou wilt be welcome to dwell in Eglarest, or Brithombar, whichever city thou preferest. Wilt thou be coming alone?
GWILWILETH
(with a note of sadness in her voice)
Yes, I am ... alone.
Talagand passes them, carrying a large stack of crates.
GWILWILETH Do you need assistance, Lord?
TALAGAND
Indeed!
(Gwilwileth takes a crate from the top of the stack.)
I thank thee greatly –
GWILWILETH
Gwilwileth. I am from Dorthonion and will be travelling to Eglarest.
TALAGAND
I thank thee, Gwilwileth. I hope thou wilt enjoy the trip.
GWILWILETH
Oh, I am certain that I will.
Just a note about this. First, Thuringwethil unceremoniously leaves the conversation with Cirdan, and rushes off to randomly help a random passerby, giving him essentially the same introduction that she gave Cirdan. Now, you may have intended for her to appear to be awkwardly trying to appear helpful in an attempt to curry favor with her hosts, in which case, this is spot on. I'm not certain that awkward is the note we want to be hitting here, though.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
CÍRDAN
Many days, I expect. There is no need to sail swiftly, and the wind is not strong. Dost thou not enjoy being at sea?
GWILWILETH
Oh, not at all. I quite love the sea. I just have fond memories of Vinyamar from when last I was there.
The "Oh, not at all." here seems like a response to the question, the answer being, "I do not enjoy being at sea at all." Obviously, her statement after contradicts that, but we probably might change Cirdan's question to something like, "Do you find the journey tedious?"
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
CÍRDAN
I recall seeing thee at the Mereth Aderthad.
GWILWILETH
And I recall seeing you ... and your fine ships. It was then, I think, that the desire to sail upon the sea first came into my heart.

Just a quick one here: Gwilwileth probably doesn't have to repeat the word 'recall' back to him.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
CÍRDAN
Thou didst say something then to me: “Beware the dour sons of Fëanor. They are not to be trusted.” Oft have I pondered these words, for I know there is strife betwixt the houses of the Noldor. Canst thou explain what thou didst mean?
Similarly to above, Cirdan's repetition of the line from last episode isn't quite necessary. He could say something to the effect of, "It was then you warned me against trusting the sons of Feanor. Pondered long upon your words I have, remembering the strife between the houses of the Noldor."
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member

Just a note about this. First, Thuringwethil unceremoniously leaves the conversation with Cirdan, and rushes off to randomly help a random passerby, giving him essentially the same introduction that she gave Cirdan. Now, you may have intended for her to appear to be awkwardly trying to appear helpful in an attempt to curry favor with her hosts, in which case, this is spot on. I'm not certain that awkward is the note we want to be hitting here, though.
Gwilwileth's dialogue is supposed to be awkward. I imagine Thuringwethil choosing to play her as fairly socially awkward, emotionally distraught, and not very bright so her reveal that Feanor burned the ships is not so out of character.

Thuringwethil also isn't carrying out her deception perfectly since Cirdan becomes suspicious of her at the end. I want the viewers to be annoyed that Cirdan isn't figuring out who Gwilwileth really is throughout the episode to further throw them off the trail of Angrod actually being Mairon.
 
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