Script Discussion Frame Backfill Session

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
It would be odd because it would be like some modern person suddenly beginning to talk old english or archaic english with his family.They wouldn't mind personal names despite it is possibly an indication for being conservative -minded.

I doubt the people of Ûrêlôni speak Adûnaic... they probably speak "Haradaic/Southron" which i imagine is either a "modern" offshot of adunaic, like westron , just in Harad and so possibly as different from it as Portugese is from romanian, or it is an indigenous language, not derived from adunaic and it is just the Nobles who have some black numenorean ancestry who still use these names... either of pride because they still are in some way fond of numenorean culture, or because they at some point in history re-adapted that custom... for political reasons maybe.To show possible allies they are also descending from numenorean culture...
Whoever these allies would be,,it could be Umbar or Gondor or maybe both.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The underlying assumption about the history of this particular city is that it was not reconquored by Ar-Pharazon after the fall of Sauron; it has been an independent city-state for the past 3,000 years. So, the 'liberation' in question is liberation from Numenor when Sauron conquered Harad in the Second Age.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The underlying assumption about the history of this particular city is that it was not reconquored by Ar-Pharazon after the fall of Sauron; it has been an independent city-state for the past 3,000 years. So, the 'liberation' in question is liberation from Numenor when Sauron conquered Harad in the Second Age.
Well of course it wasn't reconquered by Ar-Pharazon after the fall of Sauron; Ar-Pharazon's been trapped under rolling hills in Valinor for a little more than 100 years after Sauron lost the Ring to Isildur.

Unless the Fall of Sauron is the point when Sauron "surrenders" and goes to Numenor.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, what I meant was that Ar-Pharazon did not manage to reconquor this city-state after the defeat of Sauron (his surrender). So, from the viewpoint of this city-state, the history is as follows :

City founded by Numenoreans as a port/trading post at the mouth of a river in Far Harad

Later Numenorean influence is more of the colonizer variety, exploiting the region for its resources.

Then, late in the Second Age, Sauron sweeps through Harad, expelling the Numenoreans. (This is the moment being commemorated).

With Sauron off in Numenor as a 'prisoner' of Ar-Pharazon, the city-state reverts to independent rule.

3,000 years pass.

And that is where they are today.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yes, what I meant was that Ar-Pharazon did not manage to reconquor this city-state after the defeat of Sauron (his surrender). So, from the viewpoint of this city-state, the history is as follows :

City founded by Numenoreans as a port/trading post at the mouth of a river in Far Harad

Later Numenorean influence is more of the colonizer variety, exploiting the region for its resources.

Then, late in the Second Age, Sauron sweeps through Harad, expelling the Numenoreans. (This is the moment being commemorated).

With Sauron off in Numenor as a 'prisoner' of Ar-Pharazon, the city-state reverts to independent rule.

3,000 years pass.

And that is where they are today.
Just a quick note, I think we'd discussed the city as pre-dating Numenorean colonization, founded by non-Edain men in the early Second or late First age. That's why the walls of the old city are mudbrick rather than stone.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Oh ... *dng!*...

I think it could benefit the story by... not explaining ebvery detail but leaving certain aspects open to interpretation.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Right, what we are *showing* would be a stone palace and a stone temple of Sauron, while most of the rest of the city is constructed of mud bricks. The viewer, if they notice, is welcome to interpret as they wish.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here is the visual from tonight's slides; it can be found at the link to the season outline as well:

1631243398984.png
1631243439372.png
 

Kathrin

Active Member
I really love the idea of the outline (I did earlier in the year too when Harad was first brought up as an idea). Listening to the episode I was thinking about Sauron and the corruption of the East/South again. I do like this view in how it would happen in Urisakal specifically, and how it is handled, I'm just not sure if it is how I picture Sauron's situation in the whole of (closer) Rhun and Harad is going. He definitely is getting some military support at the end of RotK and probably also resources coming in, but if he was wholly successful in his campaigns of corrupting all of Rhun and Harad within his reach, the war of the ring would have ended much earlier, just with an overwhelming amount of armies walking into Beleriand. To me it looks more like he has a couple of cities close to Mordor under his thumb, but I'm unsure how much more than that. It's like, if Rome was Gondor, he has carthage and northern egypt and macedonia. (Which is also why in the PJ movies the armies from the "south" were so irritating, being so agressively coded "different". People from carthage would have looked almost indistinguishable from romans, down to dress and military.

Anyway in that spirit I was wondering, if maybe in a future frame that could be a topic, that in the south & east there might be also a great deal of resilience against Sauron (maybe a blue wizards frame? I am always happy about more blue wizard stuff)
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah, corey somehow believes Sauron's rule was not really consolidated during his masquerade in Dol Guldur.I wouldn't be so sure about but the good thing is we do not know anything about Harad or Rhun so... there could have been any kind of political reason why Sauron's legates had lost control over an area or region for sometime or had forgotten about some town or city that was a bitt off their grid.

Urisakal is quite a prosperous city, wealthy, central, geographically not too far off Umbar and Gondor... it would be an odd place to miss or ignore since numenorean colonization days... but who knows, they had once been allies to Gondor, maybe the Blue Wizards had been active in the area before. We could make up any sort of reason or story why Urisakal is still free and these things happen in history. I like it.
 

Kathrin

Active Member
It doesn't have to be Urisakal to me, I like seeing this story of Sauron's corruption succeeding play out in some places. I just wonder if there is some interesting stuff to think about beyond that. I just rewatched Two Towers yesterday, and it really struck me again how much the PJ films emphasise this "All the nice "western" civilised ppl over here are good, and all the "different" looking ppl over there, and the wild ppl living in the woods are evil" (especially since they cut the druedains involvement too).

In a visual adaptation you kinda have to rely on.. visuals, but i kinda wonder how in silm film the whole "Sauron works to corrupts the east & south" could fit with the story while being a little bit more nuanced. (The space for nuance is there in the book canon I'd argue, but once you have to depict it on screen, you have to a) condense it and b) actually visually show it, so there a lot of decisions have to be made. Of course our story does not play out in rhun & harad, so the focus is just not there, but i think it would be super cool to acknowledge in a moment, that if there hadn't been a lot of resistance against Sauron *somewhere over there*, Sauron would've probably overwhelmed everyone else long before the ring quest. A bit like the "Aragorn marches up to the black gate to distract Sauron", but a level or two behind the scenes.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
It doesn't have to be Urisakal to me, I like seeing this story of Sauron's corruption succeeding play out in some places. I just wonder if there is some interesting stuff to think about beyond that. I just rewatched Two Towers yesterday, and it really struck me again how much the PJ films emphasise this "All the nice "western" civilised ppl over here are good, and all the "different" looking ppl over there, and the wild ppl living in the woods are evil" (especially since they cut the druedains involvement too).

In a visual adaptation you kinda have to rely on.. visuals, but i kinda wonder how in silm film the whole "Sauron works to corrupts the east & south" could fit with the story while being a little bit more nuanced. (The space for nuance is there in the book canon I'd argue, but once you have to depict it on screen, you have to a) condense it and b) actually visually show it, so there a lot of decisions have to be made. Of course our story does not play out in rhun & harad, so the focus is just not there, but i think it would be super cool to acknowledge in a moment, that if there hadn't been a lot of resistance against Sauron *somewhere over there*, Sauron would've probably overwhelmed everyone else long before the ring quest. A bit like the "Aragorn marches up to the black gate to distract Sauron", but a level or two behind the scenes.
I'd be interested in that, though it would be tough to avoid a circumstance where we were telling the story of "how nothing happened".
 

Kathrin

Active Member
I'd be interested in that, though it would be tough to avoid a circumstance where we were telling the story of "how nothing happened".
Yeah, true. It would have to be one of those stories where Sauron is banished against all odds when he has already gotten very far, like beren & luthien but in a geopolitics way and not a fairytale story.. The example of what to avoid would be when Sauron tries to corrupt the dwarves in the beginning of the war of the ring and they just shut the door in his face. There is not that much story to tell, I agree. Idk how to compellingly write the story in detail (yet) either, i am just very interested in the general concept right now.

Of course the conflict in the east & south isn't gonna be just the same as in the middle earth we know, bc they don't have these established Noldor & Sindar & Numenorian kingdoms that have had the fight against Sauron so integrated into their history since forever, but that doesn't mean that all the ppl there have no means or desire of organising against an aggressor. After all Sauron & Melkor have been at work there for a while, which means that they have been able to corrupt ppl, but also that ppl have had a chance to catch on what's happening, and that resistance against it would also have had time to form in places. I realise that this is a very large and abstract thing happening very far away, and bringing it into narratable size is difficult, but especially if the blue wizards ever reconnect with the other wizards, that would be a possibility, or if Sauron's activities get a spotlight again.

Anyway, just a random thought i had while listening to the episode. I really loved the construction of the frame though, I absolutely don't wanna change that!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yeah, corey somehow believes Sauron's rule was not really consolidated during his masquerade in Dol Guldur.I wouldn't be so sure about but the good thing is we do not know anything about Harad or Rhun so... there could have been any kind of political reason why Sauron's legates had lost control over an area or region for sometime or had forgotten about some town or city that was a bitt off their grid.

Urisakal is quite a prosperous city, wealthy, central, geographically not too far off Umbar and Gondor... it would be an odd place to miss or ignore since numenorean colonization days... but who knows, they had once been allies to Gondor, maybe the Blue Wizards had been active in the area before. We could make up any sort of reason or story why Urisakal is still free and these things happen in history. I like it.
It's a bit strange that it wasn't really consolidated before Sauron declared himself. Also the Haradrim made an attempt to attack Gondor in living memory (if my timeline calculations are correct, 66 years before our frame. Of course this could be another city state.

My other thought is that Sauron has already placed Rhun under his control since the Easterlings have been enemies of the Elves and the Numenoreans/Dunedain since the First Age, they'd jump at the call, and is moving westward to secure his forces.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Middle-earth is biiiiiiig! It's eurafrasia after all.. people tend to forget the sheer dimensions because of the simplified very topic Wynn-Fonstadt and MERP maps.I can't think he was everywhere, holding dark reign over every single nation... he'd have all the troubles big empires have, be it mongols, chinese, romans, persians...

I always though... Sauron would be everywhere where some civilization is, he loves technology and organisation.City states would be his thing, very structuralized, hierarchic societies would interest him.That's where i think his evil clergy also would work best. I always thought if someone was relatively safe of him it would be more backwards people, like nomads and woodmen or mountaintribes. Urisakal is a place he'd love to control, theres former numenorean civilization... a lot to exploit.

What i really disliked about the PJ movies was that the Haradrim and Easterlings mostly appear to be "faceless" ... that is a Star wars stormtoopers thing, put the bad guys under masks so you forget they are people. I was really glad that in lake town in the hobbit films there were a few Haradrim and Easterlings and they were normal people, probably traders and travellers...
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Middle-earth is biiiiiiig! It's eurafrasia after all.. people tend to forget the sheer dimensions.I can't think he was everywhere, holding dark reign over every single nation... he'd have all the troubles big empires have, be it mongols, chinese, romans, persians...

I always though... Sauron would be everywhere where some civilization is, he loves technology and organisation.City states would be his thing, very structuralized, hierarchic societies would interest him.That's where i think his evil clergy also would work best. I always thought if someone was relatively safe of him it would be more backwards people, like nomads and woodmen. Urisakal is a place he'd love to control, theres former numenorean civilization... a lot to exploit.
It's more like that he would start with the Easterlings considering their long-standing emnity with Gondor; also they've been in his pocket for nearly a millennia by the time of the War of the Ring. They also caused trouble for Rohan and were responsible for the death of Eorl, the first King of Rohan.

So as I say, the Easterlings are already in Sauron's pocket by this point given that they're a more organized and aggressive fighting force.
 

Kathrin

Active Member
Haerangil, yeah that is one of my big gripes too, a) the stormtrooperification and b) the very distinctive othering, even though one would think those city states would have more in common with gondor than gondor with rivendell. And my other problem, is, as you mention, the sheer size of middle earth, I just don't believe Sauron has just large amounts of it under control. I agree that his focus would be on the more concentrated civilisations. But even there, from what it sounds like in lotr, he has some reinforcements, but he largely has to rely on massive orc armies also, so his domination of the east and south must have some limits.

It just reminds me a bit of that passage in the nirnaeth when Maedhros allies himself with men that come over the mountains. One of the houses betrays him bc sauron got to them, the other remains extremely loyal. We always first remember the betrayal, but this passage obviously doesn't mean that everyone to the east is corrupted, but that there is some chance of Sauron having gotten to them. The raiding parties and the reinforcements Sauron gets in lotr prove that he has done some work, but it doesn't in anyway say that all Easterlings or all Haradhrim are loyal to him. The corrupted ones are just the only ones that actively enter into the lotr narrative.

Doing such a complete adaptation, in contrast to lotr (which still could've avoided some obvious weird decisions) SilmFilm has the time to try and make that clear in some way, even if it is just a short reference. Because to me, this is an Oliphant in the room that will be there on the sidelines till the war of the ring, and also is there during all of the Silm; how peoples outside the big houses and alliances are looked at and portrayed. (Maybe that would be an opportunity, paralleling the nirnaeth and the pre war of the ring anxieties in the frame, or more generally if there is a theme in the season about corruption, or the ambiguity of men being quick to corrupt but also having capabilities to adapt and react quicker...)
 
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