Script Discussion S05E07

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Ok so do I understand this correctly: The meeting starts. Sauron is confident (for some reason) that Amlach and Bereg will speak up being anti-elf and sway people to that position. Then Hador arrives and gives a pro-elf speech. Sauron gets worried by people's reactions. He manages to pull Amlach off to somewhere (or ambushes him when he goes to take a leak, as Ange says) and immobilizes him. He impersonates him and then for some reason he isn't able to go back to Amlach, or just leaves, assuming that this will be enough?

He could have been more careful, I guess. But on the other hand, he does succeed. A lot of people leave.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Question: do we envision Sauron having any active role in fermenting anti-Elf sentiment in Estolad before the Council?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
What's Fingolfin doing? Is it related to Hador in any way?
Like Episode 4, I see this mostly being a story of Men, with a sideplot in Nan Elmoth.

We do, however, have an opportunity to see Fingon and Fingolfin in the beginning and end of the episode, and we should probably take that opportunity.

Hador does not need to arrive 'at the last minute' to join the Council, but he is travelling from the furthest away, so he's likely not the *first* person to arrive and speak up. I imagine we'll do some set up with Bereg and Amlach at Estolad prior to the arrival of Hador. Which means, we should introduce Hador while he is still in the north.

I think it would make sense for Hador to approach Fingolfin and ask permission for what he intends to do when he goes to Estolad. After all...he has to pretty much know that moving everyone to Dor-lomin is an option, before he puts that option on the table to put it to a vote.

For dramatic reasons, we won't want Hador to lay everything out for Fingolfin, get Fingolfin's permission, and then go to Estolad and lay everything out for the Men there again. So, we do have to consider what is said when on screen. But in 'reality,' I think Hador talks everything over with Fingolfin first. So we should think about what that would look like.

I think it would be awkward to have Hador's first appearance in this episode be him walking into the Council, and then at the end have to sort out, oh, right, maybe better get permission from the elves and run this by them now....oh, hey, we're in luck, Dor-lomin is available!

The 'independent allies' idea should be Hador's...but we should see Fingolfin's buy in as well.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Like Episode 4, I see this mostly being a story of Men, with a sideplot in Nan Elmoth.

We do, however, have an opportunity to see Fingon and Fingolfin in the beginning and end of the episode, and we should probably take that opportunity.

Hador does not need to arrive 'at the last minute' to join the Council, but he is travelling from the furthest away, so he's likely not the *first* person to arrive and speak up. I imagine we'll do some set up with Bereg and Amlach at Estolad prior to the arrival of Hador. Which means, we should introduce Hador while he is still in the north.

I think it would make sense for Hador to approach Fingolfin and ask permission for what he intends to do when he goes to Estolad. After all...he has to pretty much know that moving everyone to Dor-lomin is an option, before he puts that option on the table to put it to a vote.

For dramatic reasons, we won't want Hador to lay everything out for Fingolfin, get Fingolfin's permission, and then go to Estolad and lay everything out for the Men there again. So, we do have to consider what is said when on screen. But in 'reality,' I think Hador talks everything over with Fingolfin first. So we should think about what that would look like.

I think it would be awkward to have Hador's first appearance in this episode be him walking into the Council, and then at the end have to sort out, oh, right, maybe better get permission from the elves and run this by them now....oh, hey, we're in luck, Dor-lomin is available!

The 'independent allies' idea should be Hador's...but we should see Fingolfin's buy in as well.
Would Fingon volunteer his own lands for Hador?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
And let's look at the last question: of all the Elves Amlach chooses to align with after fake!Amlach is revealed, he chooses Maedhros. What influences his choice? Is it proximity? A life debt? Flip of a coin?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
In last episode, we began with Fingon offering to let Men of the House of Hador serve under him. What if we begin this episode with Maedhros making a similar offer and having Bereg and Amlach convince any Men who might be interested not to go? That would be a quick way to establish the opinions of those two Men, explain why Amlach takes up service with Maedhros after his impersonation ordeal, and set up "serving the Elves" as one of the options that the House of Hador can choose from.

If possible, there could be some warning being passed around Men at the beginning to watch out for a guy who fits Sauron's description when he was impersonating a human in Episode 4. This could suggest that Haleth warned her fellow Men about this stranger before she moved across Beleriand and help explain why Sauron chooses to impersonate Amlach rather than making up another identity for himself.

If we're going to show any of Sauron's point of view this episode, I think we should touch on his reaction to the death of Tevildo. He doesn't need to receive the news of Tevildo's death in this episode or anything; I just think he should mention something about it. Perhaps when berating whatever henchman failed to properly dispose of Amlach, Sauron could mention that Tevildo would have done a better job.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
One possible way to connect the Nan Elmoth subplot is to focus on the theme of settling on a identity and a name. The House of Hador, even though I've been calling it that for convenience, will only officially decide to become the House of Hador in this episode when they decide on their identity as the Men that are allies with the Elves.

Similarly, Maeglin will not receive the name Maeglin from Eol until he is 12 years old. I think we could make a story out of this that begins to show the first cracks in Aredhel and Eol's relationship and has Maeglin caught between them, feeling forced to choose a side. This episode would end with him apparently becoming his father's son in Eol's eyes, which would earn him his name. Next episode, we could show Aredhel winning Maeglin back over to her side with tales of Gondolin.

We could begin the episode with some kind of tension between Aredhel and Eol about the name "Lomion" that Aredhel gives her son. Perhaps Eol could be refusing to use it because it is Quenya, and Aredhel could be mad because she wants the ban on Quenya to be forgotten to help further reconcile the Noldor and the Sindar. We can also establish that Eol is not permitting Aredhel to leave Nan Elmoth to visit her Noldor kin.

Maeglin means "Sharp Glance," and Maeglin was so named because of his sharp eyes and because "his thought could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mist of words." If Maeglin is going to show this ability before he is 12, I don't think there is really anyone he could use it on except ... his parents. What if we have Aredhel planning to sneak out of Nan Elmoth and Maeglin earn his name by tattling to Eol so he can stop her?

Aredhel's realization that Eol has turned her own son against her could become part of why she must delay her escape from Nan Elmoth for so long, and we could focus on this story across the next few episodes. She can't leave until she can convince Maeglin that she must go, and when they finally do leave and return to Gondolin, it is on his initiative.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Ok interesting move, to have Sauron's crew using Eöl. One thing that makes me curious is that you've chosen Hador as protagonist for the A plot, yet Hador is seen only briefly and the other plots seem to take much more time in the episode. Maybe I misinterpret the outline.

I'm intrigued by the Bombadil suggestion. What kind of scene would that be?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok interesting move, to have Sauron's crew using Eöl. One thing that makes me curious is that you've chosen Hador as protagonist for the A plot, yet Hador is seen only briefly and the other plots seem to take much more time in the episode. Maybe I misinterpret the outline.
Yeah, I'm a bit confused by this, since Hador is featured in 7 of the 16 main plot scenes, and is the topic of conversation in another.


I'm intrigued by the Bombadil suggestion. What kind of scene would that be?
The suggestion there is to have him witness the passing of Bereg's people.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I'm a bit confused by this, since Hador is featured in 7 of the 16 main plot scenes, and is the topic of conversation in another.
Yeah I might have read the outline somewhat carelessly. I'm very sorry! He is active and takes part in several scenes in a central way. I still wonder though (with the risk of making a fool of myself again), because there is something with his story in this episode that's not very dramatic, imho. The stuff concerning Amlach is much more fascinating.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yeah I might have read the outline somewhat carelessly. I'm very sorry! He is active and takes part in several scenes in a central way. I still wonder though (with the risk of making a fool of myself again), because there is something with his story in this episode that's not very dramatic, imho. The stuff concerning Amlach is much more fascinating.
We were having a similar issue, which is part of the reason for the attempted assassination (a departure from the text and from the hosts' vision). It felt like Hador's victory was a bit too inevitable. @Rhiannon 's suggestion to have Bereg leave in Act 3 also helps to elevate the tension.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I like those changes.

So the turning point is actually Thuringwethil’s failed attack and Hador using this in a speech? How does that change people’s minds?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I like those changes.

So the turning point is actually Thuringwethil’s failed attack and Hador using this in a speech? How does that change people’s minds?
So, essentially, Hador is initially viewed as something of an upstart when he makes a big entrance into the camp. His (and his followers') armor and clothes are resplendent in comparison to those of the rest of the people. The masses are impressed, which grants him access to the council he would not have otherwise. But the elders and chiefs are not so easily swayed. There is nothing special about this young man that the Elves did not give him.

Surviving an assassination attempt in which he is wounded, then proceeding to attend the council and state his case shows that he is resolute and determined. He makes the case that the threat the Elves face is very real, and Morgoth's reach is long. Neither fleeing, nor conflict with the Elves will protect them.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I recognize that using Nan Elmoth to keep Amlach out of the way is a bit contrived, but hopefully still at least plausible. And it allowed us to tie these stories together. That seemed worth it.

To my mind, Hador's story is one of confronting the fears and frustrations of his people with a plan based on hope but also risk and change. He has to convince them that his vision is the best future for their people.

Amlach gets trapped in a scary forest. Certainly, concern for his safety is more accute, but he does not *do* anything nor impact others. His escape from the forest is not brought about by his own actions
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
So, essentially, Hador is initially viewed as something of an upstart when he makes a big entrance into the camp. His (and his followers') armor and clothes are resplendent in comparison to those of the rest of the people. The masses are impressed, which grants him access to the council he would not have otherwise. But the elders and chiefs are not so easily swayed. There is nothing special about this young man that the Elves did not give him.

Surviving an assassination attempt in which he is wounded, then proceeding to attend the council and state his case shows that he is resolute and determined. He makes the case that the threat the Elves face is very real, and Morgoth's reach is long. Neither fleeing, nor conflict with the Elves will protect them.
Also, we can show this changing attitude towards Hador over the course of the Council by focusing on one person's reaction. Perhaps there is an elder who speaks scornfully of Hador being draped in elven finery when he arrives, and then raises his own concerns about the mysterious Elves of Doriath with their magical border. And then he would not join with Bereg, but acknowledge Hador as leader in the end.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We will be discussing Episode 7 on Thursday's podcast.

I've just noticed that the outline did not actually mention fake!Amlach giving his speeches at the Council, which might explain in part why Hador's storyline seemed off before. Sorry for that oversight! I've added 'Amlach's main speech to scene 13, as a direct counter-point to Hador's call to join him in Fingon's lands. But presumably Sauron speaks earlier as well, setting up his main point in earlier Council discussions.
 
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