Script Discussion S05E10

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, trying to get ahead of this one, scheduled for 3/21.

The primary story here is the flight of Aredhel and her slaying at Ëol's hand.

Secondarily, we're doing the double wedding and Fingolfin's vision/premonition. Connecting these would be pretty easy if Fingolfin is present for the weddings. The question is whether there is any story to the wedding, or if it's just backdrop.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Hold the wedding in Dor-Lomin, maybe Fingolfin and Fingon discuss what he has seen and begin to make plans for the Big Push.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
What should Maeglin’s reaction be to coming to Gondolin for the first time? How should the Gondolodrim receive Aredhel? What’s their reaction to Maeglin?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Hold the wedding in Dor-Lomin, maybe Fingolfin and Fingon discuss what he has seen and begin to make plans for the Big Push.
That's not a bad idea. We could make Fingolfin the focus of the story there, since the Aredhel/Ëol story should properly be split into two plotlines. Eol will be out on his own meeting up with Curufin while Aredhel and Maeglin are fleeing to Gondolin.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I agree that for the Aredhel/Eöl/Maeglin story, we should certainly begin with the text as written in the published Silmarillion. There may be room for minor changes or embellishments, as well as additions that serve the purpose of the story we've been telling all season.

One such addition for consideration would be - is Curufin alone when he confronts Eöl, or is Celegorm with him? We are of course going to see both brothers defending (and losing) this land in the Dagor Bragollach, so showing them both here in this episode may be a nice way to situate them geographically for the audience, and give Curufin someone to talk to before Eöl arrives. There is one wrinkle, however - if Huan is there, following or stopping Eöl would be very easy. The audience may be more inclined to ask why Celegorm and Curufin are not tracking Aredhel if Eöl truly is 'right behind her.' Curufin's seemingly passive and restrained reaction may seem even more out of place if his brother is with him.

Another issue is the question of whether or not Aredhel's return is considered a miracle. Obviously, everyone is surprised in the book. But we left her bloody cloak behind, so she's been presumed dead in a very Joseph and the Coat of Many Colors way. So, her return is as if she's not just returned after a long absence or after being lost, but also after being declared dead. Her reunion with her brother Turgon should therefore have a heightened element of unexpected joy to it, as does the reunion of Joseph with his father Jacob in the Genesis story.

There are a few details we have added to Aredhel's story, and those should probably come up after her return to Gondolin.

One of those is that she was explicitly and publicly given a mission to speak with Fingolfin before she left. She has now returned...not having spoken with Fingolfin. So, her uncompleted mission should come up, and there is a question of how that will be handled. After all, the world is a dangerous place and I got attacked numerous times is certainly a credible reason why she never carried out her assigned task, but someone should probably ask her about it at some point.

Another is her disagreement with Turgon over his interpretation of his mission from Ulmo. He didn't understand her complaint before she left, and is unlikely to have changed his view now. But she's gone through some things since last they spoke, and may be more favorable to accepting Turgon's goals as 'good enough.' She had wanted more, but she has to realize that Gondolin is not nothing, and is in fact better than nothing the way it is, and preferable to her own failed plans that went nowhere. Acknowledging her own failures might include acknowledging that she jumped the gun and did not wait for Ulmo to indicate that it was time to take action. So, while she may still believe that the Gondolindrim should be preparing and getting ready to help the Noldor in the fight against Morgoth...she's likely to acknowledge that Turgon is doing it right in some way. Hopefully, they have an opportunity to discuss this and reconcile on this point prior to her death.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I agree that for the Aredhel/Eöl/Maeglin story, we should certainly begin with the text as written in the published Silmarillion. There may be room for minor changes or embellishments, as well as additions that serve the purpose of the story we've been telling all season.

One such addition for consideration would be - is Curufin alone when he confronts Eöl, or is Celegorm with him? We are of course going to see both brothers defending (and losing) this land in the Dagor Bragollach, so showing them both here in this episode may be a nice way to situate them geographically for the audience, and give Curufin someone to talk to before Eöl arrives. There is one wrinkle, however - if Huan is there, following or stopping Eöl would be very easy. The audience may be more inclined to ask why Celegorm and Curufin are not tracking Aredhel if Eöl truly is 'right behind her.' Curufin's seemingly passive and restrained reaction may seem even more out of place if his brother is with him.

Another issue is the question of whether or not Aredhel's return is considered a miracle. Obviously, everyone is surprised in the book. But we left her bloody cloak behind, so she's been presumed dead in a very Joseph and the Coat of Many Colors way. So, her return is as if she's not just returned after a long absence or after being lost, but also after being declared dead. Her reunion with her brother Turgon should therefore have a heightened element of unexpected joy to it, as does the reunion of Joseph with his father Jacob in the Genesis story.

There are a few details we have added to Aredhel's story, and those should probably come up after her return to Gondolin.

One of those is that she was explicitly and publicly given a mission to speak with Fingolfin before she left. She has now returned...not having spoken with Fingolfin. So, her uncompleted mission should come up, and there is a question of how that will be handled. After all, the world is a dangerous place and I got attacked numerous times is certainly a credible reason why she never carried out her assigned task, but someone should probably ask her about it at some point.

Another is her disagreement with Turgon over his interpretation of his mission from Ulmo. He didn't understand her complaint before she left, and is unlikely to have changed his view now. But she's gone through some things since last they spoke, and may be more favorable to accepting Turgon's goals as 'good enough.' She had wanted more, but she has to realize that Gondolin is not nothing, and is in fact better than nothing the way it is, and preferable to her own failed plans that went nowhere. Acknowledging her own failures might include acknowledging that she jumped the gun and did not wait for Ulmo to indicate that it was time to take action. So, while she may still believe that the Gondolindrim should be preparing and getting ready to help the Noldor in the fight against Morgoth...she's likely to acknowledge that Turgon is doing it right in some way. Hopefully, they have an opportunity to discuss this and reconcile on this point prior to her death.
So, if the sons of Fëanor encounter Ëol, who does not appear to know where Aredhel is, do they have reason to believe that following him will lead them to her? And even if they do follow him, it would presumably be at a distance, and he could conceivably lose them in Nan Dungortheb.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree that for the Aredhel/Eöl/Maeglin story, we should certainly begin with the text as written in the published Silmarillion. There may be room for minor changes or embellishments, as well as additions that serve the purpose of the story we've been telling all season.

One such addition for consideration would be - is Curufin alone when he confronts Eöl, or is Celegorm with him? We are of course going to see both brothers defending (and losing) this land in the Dagor Bragollach, so showing them both here in this episode may be a nice way to situate them geographically for the audience, and give Curufin someone to talk to before Eöl arrives. There is one wrinkle, however - if Huan is there, following or stopping Eöl would be very easy. The audience may be more inclined to ask why Celegorm and Curufin are not tracking Aredhel if Eöl truly is 'right behind her.' Curufin's seemingly passive and restrained reaction may seem even more out of place if his brother is with him.

Another issue is the question of whether or not Aredhel's return is considered a miracle. Obviously, everyone is surprised in the book. But we left her bloody cloak behind, so she's been presumed dead in a very Joseph and the Coat of Many Colors way. So, her return is as if she's not just returned after a long absence or after being lost, but also after being declared dead. Her reunion with her brother Turgon should therefore have a heightened element of unexpected joy to it, as does the reunion of Joseph with his father Jacob in the Genesis story.

There are a few details we have added to Aredhel's story, and those should probably come up after her return to Gondolin.

One of those is that she was explicitly and publicly given a mission to speak with Fingolfin before she left. She has now returned...not having spoken with Fingolfin. So, her uncompleted mission should come up, and there is a question of how that will be handled. After all, the world is a dangerous place and I got attacked numerous times is certainly a credible reason why she never carried out her assigned task, but someone should probably ask her about it at some point.

Another is her disagreement with Turgon over his interpretation of his mission from Ulmo. He didn't understand her complaint before she left, and is unlikely to have changed his view now. But she's gone through some things since last they spoke, and may be more favorable to accepting Turgon's goals as 'good enough.' She had wanted more, but she has to realize that Gondolin is not nothing, and is in fact better than nothing the way it is, and preferable to her own failed plans that went nowhere. Acknowledging her own failures might include acknowledging that she jumped the gun and did not wait for Ulmo to indicate that it was time to take action. So, while she may still believe that the Gondolindrim should be preparing and getting ready to help the Noldor in the fight against Morgoth...she's likely to acknowledge that Turgon is doing it right in some way. Hopefully, they have an opportunity to discuss this and reconcile on this point prior to her death.
Either Turgon or Idril would be a strong choice as to who would ask; Turgon in his capacity as King and brother and Idril as a confidant.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
So, if the sons of Fëanor encounter Ëol, who does not appear to know where Aredhel is, do they have reason to believe that following him will lead them to her? And even if they do follow him, it would presumably be at a distance, and he could conceivably lose them in Nan Dungortheb.
In the original story, Aredhel and Maeglin are seen passing through Celegorm and Curufin's lands (though they do not stop to visit). This sighting is what leads Curufin to be 'lying in wait' for Eöl. Eöl presumes that Aredhel has spoken with Curufin (that is where she said she was going).

So, we have a situation where Curufin is looking for Aredhel, and Eöl is looking for Aredhel, but it is Eöl who is able to follow her through Nan Dungortheb.

So far, that's fine - neither of them know where Aredhel is going, so no one has a clear starting point to follow her trail. My concern was that, if we add Celegorm and Huan to the scene, which might be nice to do for other reasons, we may be inviting the audience to wonder why Huan could not have tracked Aredhel down...but Eöl could.

We can handle that by having Curufin and Celegorm decline to enter Nan Dungortheb, and Eöl pass that way because he knows Aredhel came through there on her way to Nan Elmoth before. It's not an insurmountable obstacle, just one of those cases where you have to be careful about logistics in real time when adapting to the screen.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Re: The Double Wedding

It could quite possibly simply be a backdrop for a more important aspect of this episode. I am fine with Fingolfin being present and with it being held in Dor-lómin. Those sound like good impulses to tie these stories together.

So, what is the purpose of showing the double wedding as part of the story we are telling this season? I think it accomplishes a few important things.

One, it demonstrates that the great warrior Hador is getting older - he is the father of two of the people getting married. He is quite clearly passing off some of his warrior responsibilities to his sons, while remaining Lord of Dor-lómin. This focuses the audience's attention on the mortal lifespans, and how the human characters will come and go in this war. A hundreds of years long siege spans multiple human generations, and they cannot simply remain 'at readiness' forever. That urgency to the fight against Morgoth is something we've already discussed with the move to Ladros of the House of Bëor, but this is our chance to see how the other two houses are handling it, as well as to see Fingolfin or Fingon's reactions to the aging of Men in this context. Hador was 18 when he met Fingon, and 21 when he became Lord of Dor-lómin. Now, he's father of the bride/groom, and he will die before the Dagor Bragollach comes to pass. Adding to the different perspectives of Elves and Men is how clearly this wedding is political and arranged. I am not suggesting that any of the parties are unwilling, nor that they didn't meet prior to their wedding day or anything like that. But the agreement and arrangement to have them marry is...planned for them, in a way that is likely a bit alien to elves.

The primary aspect of the wedding is that it shows the union of two houses of the Edain. The House of Haleth has been vehemently independent this entire time - no elf lord is going to tell them what to do! And yet...she is still a living matriarch and ruler of her people, and she is clearly in approval of this wedding happening. So, reaching out to the other Men is not counter to her goals of independence and a home of their own for her people. This alliance is on equal terms, unlike what was offered by various proud elf lords.

In our story, the Houses of the Edain are completely independent of one another throughout the earlier part of the Season. Sure, they've heard news of one another, but we don't see them interacting in any way. This is a deviation from the story in the published Silmarillion, where the houses of Bëor and Hador are both encamped at Estolad together. Part of the changefulness of Middle-earth is that even though these peoples begin as separate and independent, they can form new alliances and learn from one another. We see this starting to happen in the latter half of the season. In Episode 8, Andreth visits the Forest of Brethil to learn more about the lifestyle of the House of Haleth. In Episode 9, Hador attends a Council in Dorthonion where Andreth is present, and later sends members of the House of Hador to help train the House of Bëor in warfare, human style. So now, in Episode 10, we are showing the connection between the House of Hador and the House of Haleth, where their ruling families intermarry; the wife of the presumed next Lord of Ladros (Galdor) will be a descendant of Haleth's father, and the wife of the presumed next leader of the Haladin will be Hador's eldest daughter. The double wedding is a peacetime celebration that speaks of intent to have an intertwined future between these two peoples, which is a more concrete and permanent step than the earlier interactions with the House of Bëor.

And, naturally, this wedding serves some practical purposes as well. We introduce Galdor, who will be the leader of the House of Hador during the Dagor Bragollach in Episodes 12 and 13; seeing him happy on his wedding day is a good precursor to that. We can meet his younger brother Gundor (who is not marrying today) and who will die in that battle (likely killed by a balrog on the western front). We are setting up the situation where Húrin and Huor will be fostered in Brethil (though we will not tell that story this season).

Are there any other story elements we ought to be including in the double wedding?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So the published Silmarillion says that Eol was invited to a feast by the Dwarves of Nogrod and Aredhel and Maeglin take the opportunity to flee Nan Elmoth at that point. But in our version, Eol isn’t in the Dwarves’ good graces, not anymore anyways, and not enough to be personally invited. What other excuse could we have for Eol to be away?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I expect that in our version, Eöl will be visiting Nogrod and return earlier than expected as well.

Just because he's no longer quite as honored a guest as he was doesn't mean that the dwarves would not maintain friendship with him.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Another issue I want to get on the table is that of Fingolfin's vision. We have some difficulties surrounding this.

For example, it can't really be from Ulmo, because Ulmo already has a separate game running.

It can't be too specific. If Fingolfin knows he is going to die when he faces Morgoth, why does he do it? Is he a fool? Are the Vala just jerks, hinting that they will come to his aid when they don't?

There are two pieces of information that Fingolfin should get: The siege will not contain Morgoth, and Morgoth is not unassailable.

More to come.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Another issue I want to get on the table is that of Fingolfin's vision. We have some difficulties surrounding this.

For example, it can't really be from Ulmo, because Ulmo already has a separate game running.

It can't be too specific. If Fingolfin knows he is going to die when he faces Morgoth, why does he do it? Is he a fool? Are the Vala just jerks, hinting that they will come to his aid when they don't?

There are two pieces of information that Fingolfin should get: The siege will not contain Morgoth, and Morgoth is not unassailable.

More to come.
Here's my idea for the vision: A wall, perhaps made of marble or some bright stone surrounding a black void with a tiny light. The void turns to a river of fire, which punches through the wall, but is staggered.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Here's my idea for the vision: A wall, perhaps made of marble or some bright stone surrounding a black void with a tiny light. The void turns to a river of fire, which punches through the wall, but is staggered.
My concern is that this won't be explicit enough in telling Fingolfin (and the audience) the necessary information. Whereas if he encounters someone, say Olorin in disguise, they can give him the information more overtly.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
My concern is that this won't be explicit enough in telling Fingolfin (and the audience) the necessary information. Whereas if he encounters someone, say Olorin in disguise, they can give him the information more overtly.
How specific does this vision have to be, without running into the problems you stated like the Valar looking like jerks since they don't come out until nearly 100 years after Fingolfin's demise?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
How specific does this vision have to be, without running into the problems you stated like the Valar looking like jerks since they don't come out until nearly 100 years after Fingolfin's demise?
It has to be specific enough for us to understand why Fingolfin draws the conclusions he does. If it's just imagery, we are depending upon his interpretation, which, if wrong, makes him look foolish.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
It has to be specific enough for us to understand why Fingolfin draws the conclusions he does. If it's just imagery, we are depending upon his interpretation, which, if wrong, makes him look foolish.
If we keep it specific, wouldn't Fingolfin look foolish anyway for believing the Valar would help?
 
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