Script Discussion S05E11

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok, due to Easter and scheduling conflicts, this session is tentatively set for 4/18 at 7:30 PM Eastern.

This is the season's "Deep Breath Before the Plunge". We'll be following Fingolfin's journey from Eglarest to Himring as he tries to get everyone onboard for "The Big Push". Meanwhile, Finrod is visiting with Andreth. Also, this is probably where the coup will happen in our frame story.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Ok, due to Easter and scheduling conflicts, this session is tentatively set for 4/18 at 7:30 PM Eastern.

This is the season's "Deep Breath Before the Plunge". We'll be following Fingolfin's journey from Eglarest to Himring as he tries to get everyone onboard for "The Big Push". Meanwhile, Finrod is visiting with Andreth. Also, this is probably where the coup will happen in our frame story.
In the case of the coup, how much of a surprise do we want it to be that Arnubên is in on the coup?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Question about the Rivers of Fire: would they be starting at the close of this episode, or at the beginning of next?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Quick reminder that this episode is likely our only chance to see Círdan this season, so we should think about how we want to make use of him, and what comments on the season's themes he might offer.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Quick reminder that this episode is likely our only chance to see Círdan this season, so we should think about how we want to make use of him, and what comments on the season's themes he might offer.
I could see Cirdain falling either way on Fingolfin’s initiative; either he’d be onboard if he believes that Morgoth will break the Siege and that it will be a sign for the Valar, or unsure to move without Thingol’s say-so.

Also, a rundown of who would be yea or nay on the Big Push given by @MithLuin a few months ago.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Comparing what I wrote in the preseason:
Speaking of the "Council of Fingolfin", here's the run-down:
  • Aegnor and Angrod - on board
  • Fingon - probably on board
  • Maedhros and the Fëanoreans - *not* on board; don't have the numbers, and forswearing the Oath is a non-starter
  • Men of Dor-lómin - Hador is dying, but Galdor and Gundor are likely on board
  • Men of Brethil - No thank you
  • Men of Ladros - On board; they will support Angrod and Aegnor
  • Orodreth - Manning Minas Tirith is more important than attacking Angband
  • Finrod - my purpose from Ulmo was to create a safe haven for the Noldor in Nargothrond. I'm not marching to war right now.
  • Turgon - who knows where he is?
  • Aredhel - dead
  • Thingol - Doriath is not marching out to war, no matter how many times Angrod asks.
  • Dwarves - not interested
To the current outline:
  • Círdan - I will support you by Sea, but Thingol will not.
  • Dor-lomin - We support you, but Hador is too aged to do so himself; he sends his sons.
  • Orodreth - Uhhhh, this is above my paygrade, talk to Finrod.
  • Angrod and Aegnor - We're on board! Just have to get the others to go along.
  • Finrod - I will only support this action if the Fëanoreans are part of it. Without their armies, there is no chance, and I will not spend lives so recklessly
  • Maedhros - We can't win. No matter how I look at it, we do not have the might to defeat Angband with the forces available to you. No Turgon, No Thingol.

Here is the Outline for this episode. As you can see, we have not inserted the Frame scenes yet. The Frame is reaching its climax, and we will want to coordinate the Frame scenes across Episodes 11, 12, and 13.

 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
For the Frame: when should Arnuben be revealed to be in on the coup?
This question is part of our problem. We're not sure what the other two episodes will feel like, and therefore what scenes we will be able to include. Also, He need not be "in on" the coup per se, but might take advantage of it once his mother is already gone.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This question is part of our problem. We're not sure what the other two episodes will feel like, and therefore what scenes we will be able to include. Also, He need not be "in on" the coup per se, but might take advantage of it once his mother is already gone.
Alternatively, he could make a choice next episode as to whether or not to support the coup. In the latter half of the next episode, Gandalf and Abrazan escape the city and arrive in Gondor, where in Episode 13, Gandalf reports the fall of the Haradrim city-state (could someone please remind me what we decided to call it?) to Sauron’s side, to Turgon II or Ecthelion II.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I wanted to do a brief refresher of the ages and relationships of our Ladros characters for this episode.

Episode 11 takes place in FA 445, 10 years prior to the Dagor Bragollach. There is a 10 year time skip montage in the tag of the episode, so that we will be moving directly into the battle in Episode 12.

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So, in Episode 11, here are the ages of our characters:

Andreth is 60.
Her older brother Bregor is 65, and her younger brother Bregolas is 49.
Their parents are Boromir (age 90, recently deceased) and an unnamed mother aged 85 (alive? deceased?)

Barahir, the leader of the people in Ladros, is currently 39 years old. His wife Emeldir is 42. Their son Beren is 13 years old (so he will be 23 years old during the battle, and we will show him matured in the tag).

Now, for the family we haven't talked much about, but do need to show. Bregolas' sons Baragund (29) and Belegund (25) will be bidding farewell to their wives and daughters before the battle. Since their daughters are Morwen and Rian, we will want to show this scene. But in this episode, their daughters are too young to be introduced. Morwen, daughter of Baragund, is 2-4 years old, and Rian, daughter of Belegund, is not yet born. Still, it would likely be a good idea to show Baragund and Belegund with Barahir now.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Also, while not explicitly called out in the outline, it goes without saying that Fingolfin's journeys in this episode will be upon his horse Rochallor.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Included in this episode is the part where Maedhros explains to Fingolfin that his plan for the Big Push is...not a plan. And of course, we want him to articulate what his own plans for attacking Angband would be. Florian had mentioned this earlier, and I wanted to post the reminder here - Maedhros is not simply waiting around until later - he wants to go on the offensive *after* Morgoth has committed troops to the field and has had his armies depleted.

Another (additional?) reason for believing attacking isn't the best way to win the war might be to expect an attack out of Angband in the near future that Elves and Men will be able to repel thanks to their fortifications, which would leave Morgoth open for a counterattack after he suffered huge losses in the field. It's a reasonable belief that having the defender's advantage during the early and most intense phase of a siege-heavy war instead of letting Morgoth have that advantage all the way might be the best or the only hope Elves and Men have to win.
So the Feanorians should have an actual plan, or at least reason for hope, of winning this war. Personally, I'm leaning towards the "Let him attack so we can counter it" plan, because it's a more passive version of what Maedhros will try with the Nirnaeth Arnoediad anyway: Baiting Morgoth into attacking them in a way they can exploit.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Included in this episode is the part where Maedhros explains to Fingolfin that his plan for the Big Push is...not a plan. And of course, we want him to articulate what his own plans for attacking Angband would be. Florian had mentioned this earlier, and I wanted to post the reminder here - Maedhros is not simply waiting around until later - he wants to go on the offensive *after* Morgoth has committed troops to the field and has had his armies depleted.
Whose plan for the Big Push, Maedhros' or Fingolfin's? I'm a bit confused.
 

Ilana Mushin

Active Member
I’ve just gone over the script outline. I think that the episode should be titled ‘Athrabeth’ - it means conversation, which there is a lot of in this episode. Or we could make it plural. I’m not an expert in Sindarin (I’m an academic linguist though) I’m using Jim Allen‘s “An introduction to Elvish” as my reference as that’s what‘s on my bookshelf. The plural would probably involve vowel mutation - so Eithrebeth possibly, following the mutation rules suggested on p65. I imagine though that more is understood of Sindarin pluralistation patterns since 1978 when this book was published.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I’ve just gone over the script outline. I think that the episode should be titled ‘Athrabeth’ - it means conversation, which there is a lot of in this episode. Or we could make it plural. I’m not an expert in Sindarin (I’m an academic linguist though) I’m using Jim Allen‘s “An introduction to Elvish” as my reference as that’s what‘s on my bookshelf. The plural would probably involve vowel mutation - so Eithrebeth possibly, following the mutation rules suggested on p65. I imagine though that more is understood of Sindarin pluralistation patterns since 1978 when this book was published.
Depends; what is the A-plot for this episode?
 
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