Script Discussion: S06E01 WE'RE BACK!!!!

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Currently, I am most concerned about scene 7 (beginning on p. 20). I think the requested elements are present...but I don't think the scene does a very good job of conveying the story it is meant to tell. I am not sure how best to address it, but I think I need more direct interactions between the rescued thralls and the outlaws to really make this scene work.
Okay, I have made only minor edits to this scene, but I shifted some of the dialogue around so that the diminished numbers of the settlement is now gradually revealed and more shocking to both the outlaws and the viewers. Hopefully, that makes this more effective than it was before.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here is the version of the Episode 1 script that has been shared with the hosts of the podcast. If the version I first posted here was the first draft, this is the second draft, now that it has had some feedback and edits. It's currently sitting at 49 pages, and without the Frame. Suggestions for improvements are still welcome, but I won't be making any further edits until after the podcast on Thursday.
 

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Odola

Well-Known Member
Here is the version of the Episode 1 script that has been shared with the hosts of the podcast. If the version I first posted here was the first draft, this is the second draft, now that it has had some feedback and edits. It's currently sitting at 49 pages, and without the Frame. Suggestions for improvements are still welcome, but I won't be making any further edits until after the podcast on Thursday.

Good luck! (Having one's work discussed publicly must be always a little stressing, even after several times already...)
 

David_M_R

Member
Tiny comment:

>The tales of Beleriand will continue without ye

I think 'you' is the second person plural as the object, not 'ye' (I believe the subject form is ye, cf https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2014/12/17/thou-thee-ye-you/) So 'Ye Noldor' is good.

But then is Namo addressing the single elven spirit when he says

>That choice remains to thee

and similar? It could work, but the spirit asked "...if we refuse...?", hence my confusion.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Regarding the "Sauron binds himself to bind others" thing - could that be shown by Sauron getting slightly unstable by the effort while trying to gain spiritual controll over the spirits and having to stabilise his position by reaching out and support himself on a (conveniently standing nearby) piece of rock?

This would be using ("channeling"?) the elvish spirits' bound to Arda (the material world) to bind them to his will and getting himself tangled into this relationship itself is an unintended consequence?

Not that most viewers would get the details, but some might get that some kind of "earth magic" is being involved here?

If we want to symbolise the "cost" too, Sauron actually might cut his hand in the minor way on the rough stone and in his excitement disregard this warning sign and just simply wave or blow the cut away and heal himself - focussing completely on his new power.
 
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Vibes

New Member
I had an idea about the Necromancy thing. We have said that Thuringwethil is a Namo Maia right? So to her, fea of dead elves are sorts tangible. And her mechanism for Necromancy could borrow ideas from like using talismans in East Asian myth, or something like branding their fea(?) . I do feel like the individual talisman thing could work. But it would have to be temperory. (Cuz free will overriding can't come for free. The most she can do is control their "spirit bodies(?)" while their will remains intact. So it's like their will self is watching their spirit self do weird stuff.) And that talisman will slowly weaken in it's hold. So sauron thinks he is going to look for a way to make this more permanant. Not complete domination (cuz that's what he dislikes about morgoth whammying all his projects) but ridiculously close enough. Like eternal control that doesn't have to be renewed.

I'm still formulating this idea and am just throwing it out. It might sound silly too, maybe. Also I hope I have been able to make my idea clear cuz i might have grammer errored some parts.


Also another question- can elven fea be carved into or something?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Changes requested during the session:

1) Necromancy needs more fleshing out. Show Sauron controlling the spirits by sucking the light out of their eyes.

2) Add "burrow" to Sauron's dialogue with Gothmog.

3) Huan should cringe like a reprimanded dog.

4) Annael calls the ghosts from the top of the Tower.

Anything I am forgetting?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
1) Necromancy needs more fleshing out. Show Sauron controlling the spirits by sucking the light out of their eyes.
[...]
Anything I am forgetting?
Beyond there being a hint of "a cost" to Sauron - I myself do not remember more changes requested from those you have mentioned above.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Tiny comment:

>The tales of Beleriand will continue without ye

I think 'you' is the second person plural as the object, not 'ye' (I believe the subject form is ye, cf https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2014/12/17/thou-thee-ye-you/) So 'Ye Noldor' is good.

But then is Namo addressing the single elven spirit when he says

>That choice remains to thee

and similar? It could work, but the spirit asked "...if we refuse...?", hence my confusion.
Good catch! Yes, I do not 'hear' the correctness with the old fashioned pronouns, so sometimes forget to check their grammar closely.

If I knew Old English (I do not), it would be easy to correlate those pronouns to these:

1655511652848.png1655511591758.png

So, thou for singular nominative, thee for singular objective, ye for plural nominative, and you for plural objective. (With plural used in formal settings and singular in intimate settings.) I'll try to keep that in mind!

I have tidied up that exchange, putting the emphasis on personal choices where appropriate. Hopefully it's less muddled now.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I have updated the Script Outline to reflect the discussion from last night. Altered portions are highlighted in green. Underlined portions were added after the initial script discussion.


I have already made the minor requested changes in the script. I will be updating Scenes 3 and 13 over the next few days to reflect the requested edits from the discussion.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Thank you for your kind words! As you note, it is a group effort.

As you are no doubt aware, it is considered a problem if people involved in a production read fan-produced works. Because then the fanfic writer could claim that the show stole their ideas. So, no...no one at Amazon will ever read these! But it is a fun thought, nonetheless. It generally works better if you show off a demonstrable skill that is not artwork or writing. So, for instance, if you make a perfect replica of the show's costumes, and then get hired as a stitcher or in makeup.

The "puppet show" in Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance is an example of Henson hiring someone to get their unique style of puppetry in the show. It would have been in bad taste if they had copied / mimicked it...but they were smart enough to bring that guy on board.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
One thing that jumped out.

'Ye' is very jarring. Not in its usage, as it's appropriately anachronistic. But to say the dialogue out loud (and hear it back) it does strike the ear oddly. I think it's the quantity of repetition. Any word has that affect, sounding odd being said frequently in a short space of time. But I think it hits more so as it's already strange in the ear.

I think we can probably do a dialogue pass to trim down some of what is being spoken to lose some of those usages which won't lose the impact and tone but may help it flow a little better without leaping out at an audience.

The big issue with language of this kind being to frequent, is you end up feeling like it's parody. 'Doest mother know thou wearest her drapes?' jumps to mind. It should be there, but how much it is there needs to be finely balanced. I think.

Just an observation.
 

Vibes

New Member
One thing that jumped out.

'Ye' is very jarring. Not in its usage, as it's appropriately anachronistic. But to say the dialogue out loud (and hear it back) it does strike the ear oddly. I think it's the quantity of repetition. Any word has that affect, sounding odd being said frequently in a short space of time. But I think it hits more so as it's already strange in the ear.

I think we can probably do a dialogue pass to trim down some of what is being spoken to lose some of those usages which won't lose the impact and tone but may help it flow a little better without leaping out at an audience.

The big issue with language of this kind being to frequent, is you end up feeling like it's parody. 'Doest mother know thou wearest her drapes?' jumps to mind. It should be there, but how much it is there needs to be finely balanced. I think.

Just an observation.
If Ye is used by one of the Valar, it is alright especially since they are meant to sound archaic. But then you have to make sure the grammer around it is similar and not to modern, ig.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
If Ye is used by one of the Valar, it is alright especially since they are meant to sound archaic. But then you have to make sure the grammer around it is similar and not to modern, ig.
It's the correct choice. Not arguing that. It's just the usage of it in dialogue may need pruning as it stands. I can have a pass and people can see what they think.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Right, being correct is important, as is not overdoing it.

The Valar speak to EVERYONE familiarly. There is no "formal" register for them. So, they only use "you" (or ye) in the plural. For singular, it's thee/ thou. Likewise, their diction is meant to be remote. They can sound old-fashioned compared to the Elves. In the published Silmarillion, only the Valar use -eth verb endings.

So, with a character like Námo, the goal is to preserve the feeling of Doomsman of the Valar, while not making his pronouncements stilted or repetitive. I welcome any suggestions.

(For uses of "ye" elsewhere in the script, I will have to do a grammar check to see if they ought to be "you")
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
Thank you for your kind words! As you note, it is a group effort.

As you are no doubt aware, it is considered a problem if people involved in a production read fan-produced works. Because then the fanfic writer could claim that the show stole their ideas. So, no...no one at Amazon will ever read these! But it is a fun thought, nonetheless. It generally works better if you show off a demonstrable skill that is not artwork or writing. So, for instance, if you make a perfect replica of the show's costumes, and then get hired as a stitcher or in makeup.

The "puppet show" in Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance is an example of Henson hiring someone to get their unique style of puppetry in the show. It would have been in bad taste if they had copied / mimicked it...but they were smart enough to bring that guy on board.
This is why I’ve pulled back on the writing said. I rejoined the board around the time I started work on a Beren and Luthien spec pilot as a pure writing sample. But am conscious of not wanting my ideas diluted or to be accused of taking anyone else’s. I’d hate to think people thought I’d stolen there ideas. I mean, I chose to use Tolkien’s work in a spec script as I will NEVER have the rights. It was fun to write without feeling like I had to ‘sell’ it. Just using it as a proof of ability sample spec. So no issue there. But yeah, don’t want to cross the streams. So now i lurk and play in the ideas of future seasons and casting. Which are fun
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Rob - we're sharing our ideas freely here, on the internet. We are not the only group project that has produced scripts based on the Silmarillion and then shared them online. If someone adopts one of the ideas from Silm Film as part of their own personal 'fanon' of the Silmarillion, that's fine. As you say, it's not like you're running off to sell your script! Generally speaking, there's a lot of cross-pollination in the fanfic community, and a simple acknowledgement of another's work is enough to justify borrowing ideas from it. Copying or reposting someone else's work without permission is a different matter, but of course that isn't at issue here.

If you'd prefer to keep the work separate to avoid crossing the streams, that's fine. I just wanted you to know that no one here is worried about you 'lifting' anything from this project! If you're inspired by it, great, but no harm done.

If someone at Amazon 'lifted' something from our work, used it in their show, and did not acknowledge or pay for it...that would be an issue. But that obviously won't happen, because they know not to go looking, and it's not like we're e-mailing them copies of our work unsolicited, either!



Use of "ye" in the current draft of Episode 1:

Námo's dialogue: 5 occurrences
Finrod's dialogue: once (to the dwarves, as part of his 'diplomatic' conversation)
Sauron's dialogue: once (final line)

I also forgot to use -eth when Námo was speaking, so I have added one instance of that in as well.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here is the version of the Episode 1 script that will be presented at Mythmoot today in a dramatic reading. I hope this will help as a 'table reading' to make clear where the dialogue needs further revision. Naturally, most of the action has been deleted or converted to a briefer narrative voice.

 
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