Script Discussion - S07E01!

Nicholas Palazzo

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
We're coming back for another season and I couldn't be more excited! So much violence is going to ensue!

We're starting up March 1st, at 8 PM Eastern, so feel free to reach out if you'd like the Zoom link. Otherwise, we'll be broadcasting at http://twitch.tv/signum.
 
Looking forward to it!

Here's what we need for Episode 1, our bottle episode on Gondolin:

1708229693241.png
1708230029946.png
 
MithLuin said:
Here's the Season Outline (will be updated later):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ouid=115544030147123164884&rtpof=true&sd=true
Click to expand...
Act 1: episode 2 B-Plot: Why do the Gondolinian elves have a purpose outside of Gondolin at all? Why can they just be, be happy, be creative and be safe? This is what elves normally do. Fight is an exception to their way of life, not a normal state and not something they strive for - except if one is Feanor or one bound by his Oath and they are not. And elves seldom do prepare for something. There hope is in their past, they dread the future because if means degradation per default, they preserve what can be salvage of the past optimum, they do ignore the future as long as they can - similar to how most humans ignore the fact that they will die one day, elves ignore the fact that the future will ever come. If they could elves would postpone the future indefinitely. (This with actually what the elven rings did, slowed the flowing of time, both in Lothlorian and in Rivendell.) Humans are the ones who put their hope in the future, as even if will bring old age and death to each of them individually, it bring hope to humanity as a whole. Men look forward to the future - for the things that are to come, for the New that is to come. Elves do not. The New already was in the beginning and each passing second brings them farther from it.

Turgon as the king has the unpleasant task to have to think about the future to some degree, but the gross of the population lives freely without any "purpose", thank you very much.
 
Last edited:
Turgon has a purpose for Gondolin, because Ulmo told him to prepare and be ready for this purpose when he spoke to him in Nevrast. Gondolin exists for a two-fold purpose - to protect and preserve the elven society (a very elvish impulse, as you point out, and not unlike what is happening in Nargothrond or Doriath), but also to prepare for the future so that he will be ready to save Beleriand when the time comes.

Since Turgon *is* going to march to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad with an army 10,000 strong, it seems fair to say that his people are on board with this plan, and we must show that here in Episode 1. Aredhel's legacy and the death of Fingolfin also should be explored, since this is the first time we're revisiting Gondolin since either of those events.
 
MithLuin said:
Turgon has a purpose for Gondolin, because Ulmo told him to prepare and be ready for this purpose when he spoke to him in Nevrast. Gondolin exists for a two-fold purpose - to protect and preserve the elven society (a very elvish impulse, as you point out, and not unlike what is happening in Nargothrond or Doriath), but also to prepare for the future so that he will be ready to save Beleriand when the time comes.
Click to expand...
Even if he is "obliged" to it pro forma, this is not where his heart is. This is a burdersome, unelvish task, which grows the more and more tedious.
MithLuin said:
Since Turgon *is* going to march to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad with an army 10,000 strong, it seems fair to say that his people are on board
Click to expand...
More like - they are willing to suffer it as long as it does not inconvenience them too much. Well, some kingly stuff Turgon has burdened himself with, and they are ready to tolerate it be on his own behalf. Well, as long as he orders them to make something artistic, - like inventive weapons - well, this is fun, having some warriors exercising - well, looks nice, is some form of art too. But the gruesome world outside? Who would willingly bother with it? Well, if he leads them into battle, they will follow, as this is what you do when you have a king. But this is a repugnant job to be done, nothings they look forward to or poison their minds with anticipating it.
 
Our task in episode one is to portray Gondolin in such a way that their marching out in full force to join the Nirnaeth may be unexpected, and may be a surprise, but it does not come out of nowhere or seem out of character for them. If we portrayed them as wholly insular, and viewing Beleriand outside their mountains as gruesome and traveling there repugnant, then it would require a later scene to explain their decision to march out regardless. We aren't going to have that later scene, and so we will need to plant enough seeds here for the later decision to make sense without needing to be explicitly explained. Certainly, there can be some elves of Gondolin with the attitude you describe. But it can't be universal.
 
Do we want to introduce the plot thread of Maeglin's lust for Idril this season? Or is that something to be shelved for the Fall of Gondolin?
 
The Gondolindhrim are a mix of Sindar and Noldor (even more so than Nargothrond, according to the text). So we may be able to show some different attitudes depending on whether you saw the Darkening of Valinor and crossed the Helkaraxë, or whether you are born and bred in Middle-earth. The Noldor may be more willing to actively avenge Fingolfin than the Sindar.

I don’t know if there will be time to show the multicultural flavour of the populous, but it might be fun.
 
MithLuin said:
We have Galdor as a Sindarin lord of Gondolin, and we have Pengolodh, who is born in Gondolin. Either of them might be appropriate for showing a different viewpoint than, say, Glorfindel and Ecthelion.
Click to expand...
Excellent. I'm very keen for Pengolodh to be developed as a character. I thought Galdor was with Cirdan.
 
MithLuin said:
Our task in episode one is to portray Gondolin in such a way that their marching out in full force to join the Nirnaeth may be unexpected, and may be a surprise, but it does not come out of nowhere or seem out of character for them. If we portrayed them as wholly insular, and viewing Beleriand outside their mountains as gruesome and traveling there repugnant, then it would require a later scene to explain their decision to march out regardless. We aren't going to have that later scene, and so we will need to plant enough seeds here for the later decision to make sense without needing to be explicitly explained. Certainly, there can be some elves of Gondolin with the attitude you describe. But it can't be universal.
Click to expand...
the problem with this approach is that it making elves too similar and undistinguishably from humans in their outlook and motivation - and making characters acts out of character for plot reasons and for our convenience act is a dangerous thing to do - it can makes the audience loose trust in our integrity as storytellers and in the integrity of the story we are telling and as result loose interest in our story - as happened a lot to many productions in recent times....

Would the young men in Gondolin were not struck by the basal incompatibility of elvish and mortal attitudes towards the world and themselves they would not be eager to leave this quickly - Tuor later will not have this problem as he has be raised elvish from birth and his couple of years among humans were neither "formative" nor "normative" for him, but a normal human-raised human should have big problems to adjust to the elvish mode of being - or even to grasp it.
 
Last edited:
That was one of the main motivations in including Handir in this part of the story-to show and give voice to the discomfort of a human trapped in an elven city.
 
MithLuin said:
That was one of the main motivations in including Handir in this part of the story-to show and give voice to the discomfort of a human trapped in an elven city.
Click to expand...
I do understand that, but that suggests a problem, this seems to imply that contrary to the original story neither Huor not Hurin would be discomforted on their own because and if they had been there alone they would have no issue - but this is not typical for how Tolkien depicts Faerie - being immersed in Faerie for a mortal is usually both overwhelming and disturbing, and few mortals can handle it for a longer time - it usually decouples and desynchronizes mortals from the flow of time and most respond badly to that in the longer run...
 
Last edited:
I don't think that Húrin and Huor will have no problems, just that Handir will be the one most out of sorts from the start. That said, I dont think either in Tolkien's version (With Húrin and Huor only) or ours (with Handir added) that the humans are there long enough for real dysynchonisation. The humans could anticipate that this would become a problem of course, based on what they experience. The only temporal displacement that I can recall Tolkien really exploring is when the Company are in Lothlorien. Bilbo seems unbothered in Rivendell, for example, and Aragorn and some of his ancestors were brought up in Rivendell. Beren has a Faerie experience in Doriath, but not in a temporal way (the seasons pass as they pass). So I don't see this being an issue for the humans in Gondolin. In Tolkien's version, we are not given much of an account of H&H's experiences in Gondolin. The reasons for them leaving are related to mortality, which Turgon concedes is an issue (hence he lets them depart). I think that even Huor in the Silmfilm version who loves being in Faerie, can see that it perhaps will not be healthy for him to remain there.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
Beren has a Faerie experience in Doriath, but not in a temporal way (the seasons pass as they pass).
Click to expand...
He does, but he also experiences some temporal displacement - the seasons do pass but he is not included - he seems stationary while the time rushes by. This is one of the artefacts which Legolas describes:
"Legolas stirred in his boat. 'Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'"

[But actually I do doubt that Legolas actually said that, it seems more likely to be something Frodo put into his mouth in his story for the sake of the reader- as it is explained from a moral viewpoint and Legolas' does not seem to have had the regular contact with mortals that would have been necessary to be able to assume their perspective to that degree. He would have had to have spent several centuries living among mortals to be able to point out the differences between both perspectives in this way - a knowledge that, given his assumed backstory, I am not convicted he would reasonably have had the opportunity to acquire. Either this a summary of a more lengthy discussion of the subject or a summary of Frodo's own observations and reflexions/musings about it.]
 
Last edited:
lol, I just got to that passage in my current re-reading of LoTR (first time in about 6 years!). This is Legolas’ experience of time in Middle-earth - probably how the people in Gondolin are experiencing it. Gondolin does not have a Ring of Power so I‘m imagining that Humans won’t notice time differently while there EXCEPT that Elvish society works without same kinds of temporal references that human society works on. We can play with that, but I don’t think it will result in the same kind of disorientation that the Company of the Ring experience (except Legolas) while in Lorien. Silmfilm has already explored these differences with the humans in Nargothrond, so we probably don’t want to tread lightly here, assuming that the viewer has seen this kind of thing before. We can show the particular characters’ responses to the differences between Elves and Humans, but probably don’t have to belabour it in general.
 
I wouldn't mind having Húrin et al surprised by how much time has passed upon their return. They know they've been gone awhile, but that doesn't mean they realize just how long it's been. Something like that. Nothing extreme - they don't think it was a couple of days when it was really 2 years or anything like that. They're aware of seasons changing, but each day feels somewhat timeless so they're maybe losing track? Something like that, to emphasize the disconnect and transition back for them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top