Session 1.7

Phillip Menzies

Phillip Menzies

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The questions to consider for the next session due to air on Friday 6th of November 2015 are:
  • What is the story for the next episode 1.5 and which characters should appear ?
  • How should the tension build around Melkor's ascension among the Valar and what will be the response to his rise ?
  • Should the building of the lamps be Melkor's idea ?
  • What will the frame story be for this episode ?
As always please refer to the season 1 planning notes and episode outlines that can be found here http://silmfilm.mythgard.org/episode-1-1-plot-overview/ and listen to the last podcast or read the notes for Session 1.6 or if you are bold jump straight in.
 
During the last episode, Phillip, Karita Alexander, and I got to talking about how to dramatize the romance between Tulkas and Nessa in the - what, one episode? - we have to work with.

We quickly rejected my idea of intersplicing the main action of the episode with the two of them going through the 36 Questions That Lead to Love quiz, closing out - this being the Silmarillion, after all - with them looking into each other's eyes for four centuries instead of four minutes.

Karita, who's more familiar with Silmarillion lore than I am, said Nessa is supposed to be a dancer, and, "I don't know if Tolkien ever says, but I think of her as being a teacher or inspirer of beautiful movement. The way that animals move, the way that leaves fall, the way that water flows could all have been products of her presence."

She expressed fascination with the idea of Tulkas and Nessa, having a background in both dance and martial arts, she thinks "fighting and dancing have fun things in common."

From there, we considered a modified version of the "Tulkas saves Nessa from Melkor-influenced corruption" scenario discussed in the episode. We weren't sure whether ainur in good standing with Iluvatar and inside Valinor can be killed or sustain major injury, but presumably, even if Tulkas and Nessa can't themselves be endangered by the corruption, there might be living things who can, or the two of them might take it upon themselves to clear out a spot of corruption because they know it's going to cause a lot of trouble for the Children of Iluvatar further down the line.

Anyway, we thought Nessa and Tulkas might fall together into an area which has been afflicted by corruption - Karita suggested spiderwebs, and Philip thought it might have something to do with Ungoliant, thus allowing the scene to advance multiple storylines simultaneously. Once they're in the corrupted area, for whatever reason, they have either to escape it or undo it.

We thought Tulkas could fight the corruption, while Nessa's dancing dispels it or encourages the growing things around them to fight it, or counters it in some other manner. Karita said the scene could show the two of them "learning from each other, borrowing techniques from each other, Tulkas fighting more fluidly and gracefully, Nessa using her dance moves as a way to fight."

This would satisfy the requirement Corey raised in the episode that they be on an equal footing: we see them cooperating to get out of a tough situation, each learning from the other and being more effective for it.

Karita also suggested the two of them might have shared a duet during the Music of the Ainur. This could be played in tandem with the above scenario - they might share a duet, then seek each other out in Valinor, spend some time together, then get swept up in an attack of corruption and have to fight/dance their way out.


During the conversation, Phillip asked what Nessa's role was in creating Arda. None of us knew for sure, but Karita said: "She might just be there to be lovely and make people happy with dancing."

As she pointed out, this may seem like not such an important thing in contemporary Western culture, but we all agreed this is a misperception on the culture's part. It might be interesting to depict Nessa's role as being beautiful, dancing, and making people happy in such a way as to make clear that this is important, meaningful, valuable, and powerful.

Further, we realized, this could double as foreshadowing for Luthien, because - if I'm remembering my Beren and Luthien story right - she was the one the elves "most loved" precisely because of her beauty, singing, dancing, and making people happy. So establishing the importance of these things to the world of the Silmarillion in the first season would be a neat way to lay the groundwork for Luthien, whenever she shows up.
 
Some thoughts regarding Melkor and the lamps: I'm not sure I find good reason to make it entirely Melkor's idea to build the lamps (and all along have the plan to destroy them). If we want to make his progress to evil a long process, this is not the way to do it. But I think it would be good to make him take part in the creative process, perhaps with Aulë and his gang, and some pre-balrogians, and then, when they are finished, everyone just says it's a great team effort and he is offended by that (and destroys them). Actually Melkor could do this by using his maiar, and not doing it himself. He could make the maiar who follows him (and maybe Sauron?) feel that they are being neglected by the other Ainur, and inspire fury in them, in a way that takes them along the way to becoming balrogs. He could say to them something like: "Is it not your fire that makes the lamps spread their light? What would they be without you? Without your gifts they would be nothing but dead pillars. No one gives you the credit you deserve. I say you should take your gifts back. "
EDIT: I noticed that the light used in the lamps was collected from all around Arda. So maybe my idea doesn't work.
 
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The building of the lamps should probably be an idea that comes from Yavanna. She would speak of the vegetation's need for light. And she and Aulë could do some brainstorming... "We can collect all that misty light...and place it on high pillars!" And Melkor, who perhaps is close to Aulë, can come in early in the process and sort of take the role of a leader or supervisor, and he brings in his followers. The tension could build up around the fact that Melkor sees it as his project, but the other Valar considers it a team effort (maybe leading to my idea above about the destruction of the lamps).

Another possibility is of course that the Valar think of the discord in the music and want to make sure they have peace with Melkor, and so they invite him to participate. (And then he uses ice in the construction, which is a substance unknown to Aulë. But does this version really work?)
 
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This episode is another case of departing significantly from the PUB SIL. The impetus for building the lamps was the need for light, but one of the side effects of their illumination was that all the seeds Yavanna had planted finally sprouted, and then the beasts came forth. So before the lamps there was no flora or fauna. The last episode already talked about the plant growth and the animals that had been created so I think it will be important to have only small or stunted growth or small statured animals present before the lamps are lit. Then there can be a bourgeoning of growth to show the huge impact the lamps have on the world.

Once again in this episode we need to consider Melkor’s full trajectory in the season. In the PUB SIL he is bad right from the beginning. The way we have built his character so far I think that he cannot make the full fall in episode 1.6 with the destruction of the lamps. That will need to wait for the final episode of the season. We have built him up too high for him to fall so far. I don’t think the lamps should be Melkor’s idea. I can’t make that fit in with his fall. It can be suggested by others and in his honour but he wants to place it in the north where he resides so he can possess it to keep in character as the miser of light, but that is curtailed by Varda and others who want the light to be shared for all. So we have Melkor’s discontent. Is that enough to warrant him destroying them? I know this will be for the following session, but I think that the destruction should be done by his followers as they think they are acting on Melkor’s behalf in response to his obvious malcontent. If we decide that Maiar can be killed then Melkor could make things worse by accidently killing those Maiar who come to bring him in after the destruction making him a flawed rather than evil character and giving another reason for his flight. This could also make the action by the Valar at the end of the season a bit heavy handed and give us the hope that he can in fact be rehabilitated.

As to Melkor’s rise I think it should be split 70/30 with the majority supporting Melkor and the smaller number of gainsayers who in the end will be vindicated. I think there also needs to be some question in this episode about leadership because in the end Melkor wants to have dominion over all the others. Manwe could make the final decision about the lamps and be understood as being Iluvatar’s appointed leader. I think the episode should also show more Maiar going over to Melkor’s side and swelling the ranks of those who will destroy the lamps.

As to the minor storyline with Ungoliant, Nessa and Tulkas, Lincoln and Karita expressed it well. The only thing I have to add is the importance of moving multiple storylines along together. We could have the female version of Ungoliant beginning to absorb the light from the air around her and excreting darkness, and Nessa and Tulkas investigating or being trapped in some way. I have a feeling that others may not like to use the concept of Ungoliant being vampire like, minus the cheesy fangs, but hey, vampires are part of the lore. Didn’t Luthien disguise herself as a vampire to gain entrance to Angband? I think it is important to show some Maiar going bad in different ways to explain things like Old Man Willow or the hordes that eventually follow Melkor/Morgoth.

I also think that we should hold off on the corruption spreading from Utumno until after the lamps fall when Middle Earth is plunged into relative darkness and Melkor starts to dwell and stew on his exile because at this stage we have portrayed Utumno as a place of beauty.

As to the frame for this episode, I think it needs to be around the concept of created glories whether that be something that Estel creates or the ruins of Arnor that echo the vast accomplishments of the Numenorians in Middle Earth. The foreshadowing can be that these glories had their day and they all passed away in their time.
 
Since listening to the latest session I have a clearer picture of the process. So, we have Melkor establishing himself as a king of the Valar or something like that, based on him solving some problems, contributing to the beauty of Arda and bringing some of the Ainur together. We still have some monsterous beasts that are the effect of his marring, and the other Valar probably aren't particularly fond of those. Ulmo could complain about great sea serpents and kraken, and Yavanna could miss some of her favourite animals, now extinct. We also have the proto-balrogs, who perhaps are a bit uncanny in their fanatic following of Melkor. As I understand it they should come in at the end of episode four? So this episode should give them more time and focus. I think that we could have two parallel story lines: one concerning Yavanna and Aulë and the need to construct Lamps, and another concerning Melkor's self-styled kingship, in which the future Gothmog and his kin are central. They are spirits of fire, so wherever they go they bring light. This means that when the Lamps are built, some of their power (and Melkor's) is made obsolete. This is of course obvious to Melkor, who decides to take part in the building of the Lamps (for two reasons: to continue being the master of light, the owner of it, and also to be the great problem solver, the "creator"). Others don't see it the same way he does (and by the way, in the process Arien could stop following him), and when the Lamps are up they celebrate their collaborative effort. This means that Melkor has failed to hold on to his position.

The frame could involve Estel learning something about collaboration and leadership. He could listen to Elrond's council meeting and think that Elrond decides everything. But Elrond says, "Then you have not listened" (since the process is much more complex). I don't know, this obviously needs elaboration...
 
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In listening to Session 1.6 (you don't remember everything when you attend) I was struck by the mention of the corrupted beasts of tusk and ivory at this stage in the narrative. It appears that these creature will appear early in the gloaming of Arda and be the impetus for Tulkas' arrival (unlike my suggestion above to not arriving until after, but I think we need to flesh out HOW! I associate the corruption slowly spreading as a consequence of Melkor brooding while in Utumno, not as a direct result of his malice because we haven't written him as malicious so far. As I said above, this is all wrapped up in Melkor's narrative trajectory and by downplaying his early tendency towards evil there are knock on effects which we need to make sense of and justify. This is one such occasion. My view of what was decided in this episode sees Melkor out and about interacting with the other Valar, not brooding, so how do these abominable creatures appear?
 
This comment was made by Maegan Frame our scribe.

"When we were talking about introducing Tulkas and Nessa, something about the story reminded me of the myth of Atalanta and the Golden Apples. Perhaps the bit about her being swifter than the deer. (I shared this with Trish as I was getting some things taken care of for last session's notes and she wanted me to add this to the discussion)

I was seeing a scenario where Tulkas and Nessa were working together (like described in the discussion summary)...Nessa was leading the deer and other animals away from lava flow (or a flood, pick your form of natural disaster/corruption) and Tulkas was wrestling with the negative energy (a proto-Balrog/follower of Melkor/evil fire being/non-arachnid Ungoliant) and they manage to save everyone/thing and banish the evil for the moment, and the dust has settled, and it's finally quiet.


They sit heavily beside one another and sigh one of those "I'm so tired, I feel it in my toes" kind of sighs, and they're just quietly taking it in. Tulkas then pulls a golden apple out of his pocket and looks at it, then at Nessa, who's captivated by its shine when she sees it, and gives it to her, and then he pulls one out for himself and they quietly have a simple bonding moment while having their apples.


(I also feel like this scene is sort of an "Adam and Eve bad apple" antidote haha)"
 
Follow-up thoughts on Nessa/Tulkas plot line, post-Session Recording.

I still have serious reservations about the damsel in distress scenario, especially when combined with a romantic plot, because I think that can easily feed into a number of very harmful gender stereotypes that still exist in the world today. I'm not saying that making Nessa a damsel in distress is necessarily going to perpetuate those harmful stereotypes - but I think it makes that possibility about a hundred times more likely, and it will take that much more care and thoughtfulness to avoid.

However, since this seems to be the way the SilmFilm crew are committed to playing the Nessa and Tulkas romance, I'm prepared to work with it. Corey disliked the alternate scenario Karita, Phillip, and I came up with because he felt it didn't go far enough in distinguishing Nessa's and Tulkas' strengths - didn't sufficiently differentiate their skill sets.

I think that depends on how you play it, but okay, fair enough. (I still kind of like it, personally, because it could show that warfare is just one way to overcome corruption, not the only way - but that's just me. I also like Maegan's suggestion above.) However, I want to flag two aspects of the "Nessa and Tulkas are trapped in/go to investigate a manifestation of corruption, and have to fight/dance their way out" scenario; two essential points it addresses, which I'm so far not convinced of in the "Tulkas rescues Nessa" version, from the discussion its received in the previous two episodes. I'm doing this not to argue in favor of the plot line I helped come up with, but to get folks thinking about how to incorporate these points into the rescue storyline, since that seems to be the one we're going with.

First, having them fight/dance their way out of corruption together can easily depict them as equals. The thing about the rescue scenario is that it inherently puts the rescuer in a superior position and the rescuee in an inferior. Yes, Nessa can be shown to be strong in resisting Ungoliant, but if her resistance to Ungoliant fails, and Tulkas' attack succeeds, that's going to come across as Nessa not being as strong as Tulkas.

I agree that Nessa shouldn't be a fighter, but I think that if she's going to be shown to be Tulkas' equal, she needs to use one of her strengths (dancing, running, or what have you) to solve a problem as big as Tulkas rescuing her from Ungoliant, and this problem has to be as well thought out and set-up as her capture by Ungoliant.

I think part of the reason we see the contemporary tendency to turn female characters into action heroes is that modern Western culture prizes fighting prowess while disparaging or dismissing "feminine" strengths like dancing and caretaking. That means if you're going to show a character who embodies such traits as the equal of a character who's a fighter, you have to put extra effort into showing that the problems they confront are equally dire, and it takes comparable strength to solve those problems. This is something I don't think even Tolkien succeeded at - in Return of the King, he depicts the ability to heal as a strong and important virtue, but it still doesn't come across to me as a virtue as strong and important as military prowess in the world of Lord of the Rings.

I'm not asking for another Tauriel - I mean, another Tauriel would be awesome, but I'm not asking that it be Nessa, there are other great female character types - but so far, I haven't really heard any suggestions of what problem Nessa can use her own gifts and strengths to overcome that's as big and important as Tulkas rescuing somebody from Ungoliant. So let's bring on the ideas, people.

Okay, that was my first point. Second, having Nessa and Tulkas work together as a team to escape or vanquish corruption easily lends itself to establishing a romantic bond between the two. Now, I'm a sucker for a good romance plot, and maybe my sensibilities are woefully out of step with most peoples', but I don't find anything inherently romantic in one party rescuing another. Not as the start of a relationship, anyway - if the characters are already in love, like Luthien and Beren, then it can be powerful. But that's not the case here - the whole point is to show them falling in love, right? This way, it feels more like falling in love with each other because of an event, not falling in love with each other because of their respective personalities. That, to me, isn't inherently romantic.

I like the scene Maegan proposes of the two of them sharing a quiet moment together with a pair of golden apples, but I don't think it could work the same way in a rescue storyline. Another harmful stereotype which the combined damsel in distress/rescue romance tropes can easily feed into is that the rescuee is under some sort of obligation (often sexual or romantic) to the rescuer. So in order to work, this scenario has to establish "No, it's not that she owes him something, it's that they're each attracted to the other." This makes a lot of potential scenes between them either impossible or more difficult to pull off, because of the ambiguous meaning.

Remember, we only have one episode to show Nessa and Tulkas falling in love - to the point where they get married in the next episode. There isn't time to develop their relationship as a long arc, we have to get right to the point. Where's the mutual attraction between the two of them? Where are the sparks?
 
Lincoln Alpern said:
Follow-up thoughts on Nessa/Tulkas plot line, post-Session Recording.

First, having them fight/dance their way out of corruption together can easily depict them as equals. The thing about the rescue scenario is that it inherently puts the rescuer in a superior position and the rescuee in an inferior. Yes, Nessa can be shown to be strong in resisting Ungoliant, but if her resistance to Ungoliant fails, and Tulkas' attack succeeds, that's going to come across as Nessa not being as strong as Tulkas.

I agree that Nessa shouldn't be a fighter, but I think that if she's going to be shown to be Tulkas' equal, she needs to use one of her strengths (dancing, running, or what have you) to solve a problem as big as Tulkas rescuing her from Ungoliant, and this problem has to be as well thought out and set-up as her capture by Ungoliant.
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If Nessa's skill is running, she could be used as a messenger. If she get captured by tripping on a root, Tulkas should be able to defeat Ungoliant, because Ungoliant trips on the same root. It happens by Catastrophe - Eucatastrophe, might be a way. My example is rather poor, and just an illustration.
 
If both Nessa and Tulkas are great runners, they might decide not to fight the shadowy Ungoliant (is she evasive in some strange way?) and instead try to escape together. And in their escape, running across the land, sometimes jumping over chasms or rivers, they find excitement and joy, and mutual admiration, and love. Well, maybe that needs to be worked on...
 
Yes, by all means, let's have them run away from Ungoliant instead of somehow mastering her. That saves the dreadfulness of her power for us to use later on in the Darkening of Valinor (even Morgoth is a bit afraid of her), instead of watering it down by showing that a couple of the Valar have already figured out how to beat her (or her minions). Plus we get the added bonus of letting Nessa and Tulkas run together, which is a neat convergence of their various strengths. The dancer and the wrestler are both nimble of foot, and perhaps they can gain respect for each other through that. Maybe each thinks they should be able to outrun the other, but instead they find that they can only keep pace with each other.
 
The whole idea of the 'damsel in distress' concept is one that we, as modern readers/viewers, have been conditioned to have a kneejerk reaction against, and for good reason. I think, however, that the hosts dealt with this in the most recent broadcast so I think we should talk about it here as well.

The idea that one who isn't physically powerful is somehow inferior is actually just as fallacious as the idea that one who is female is somehow inferior to one who is male. My thoughts, based on what the hosts were saying, are that Ungoliant is not just trying to overpower Nyssa - that she is able to do - but to corrupt, or 'darken' her. Nessa comes under spiritual attack, visually represented by Ungoliant's unlight, and is able to repel it through her artistry. We could even show Tulkas attempting to get to them, but unable to do so due to the darkness surrounding Ungoliant. It is not until Ungoliant gives up on this and changes into her final form of a monstrous spider (in an attempt to destroy Nessa), that Tulkas is able to reach them and beat off the evil Maia.

I have used this example before: There are plenty of people that I could physically overpower, and vice versa. This has absolutely nothing to do with our relative value, or our total ability as a person. My wife and I are very different. The fact that I can overpower her physically means nothing in the grand scheme of things and in many ways, she is a more talented, intelligent, and accomplished person than I.
 
Yes, the image of the powerful Tulkas batting at shadows after the destruction of the Trees in the published Silmarillion that Corey Olsen brought up in today's session demonstrates very forcefully that physical strength is not the only kind of power. The delineation between warrior and mage typically focuses on this - a great warrior (often) can't work magic, and a magic-user can (often) be physically overcome (if you get past the magical barrier, that is). Marvel's Thor and Loki play out this trope in many of their confrontations. Recognizing different types of strengths and how they work together is typically seen as a sign of wisdom (so Melkor should not get this AT ALL).

Nessa should be fleet-footed and lithe and agile and graceful and everything you expect from a gymnast or ballerina. Ungoliant wants to hold her, and she wants to run, is what I got out of today's discussion. Tulkas does not seem like someone who would experience fear. Rage and frustration, yes, but not fear. Would Nessa be afraid?

The current ideas did, though, tilt very heavily towards the rescue/damsel-in-distress situation, still. I think some additional nuance would benefit the situation.
 
MithLuin said:
The current ideas did, though, tilt very heavily towards the rescue/damsel-in-distress situation, still. I think some additional nuance would benefit the situation.
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That's what I was trying to go for in my last post.

I agree with Nicholas that it's fallacious to suggest that physical prowess makes someone superior, but it's a very popular trope in contemporary culture, and when you're showing a character with physical prowess rescuing a character without, you're apt to perpetuate that trope unless you're really careful with how you play it. In that regard, the scenario as Nicholas describes it sounds like potentially it can work, if Ungoliant's spiritual and physical attacks are depicted as equally but differently dangerous, as opposed to switching from one to the other being treated as raising the overall danger level. Although, I really also like Matthew's suggestion of Nessa and Tulkas running together and each being impressed with the others' ability to keep up. Then again, perhaps like fighting/dancing their way out of corruption, that doesn't differentiate their skillsets enough.
 
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Ah, sorry, by 'current ideas,' I meant in the session discussion, not in this thread. I find the ideas here more nuanced, and the ideas in the session more 'big strong Tulkas rescues Nessa from being ensnared by Ungoliant' which is...problematic, for several reasons.

They also introduced the idea that Ungoliant is interested in Nessa (as in, pairing up with her), and that would also be problematic for a variety of reasons.
 
Ah, yes, that was my concern with the sessions discussion(s), as well. They kept saying, "no, no, we'll do it in such a way as to avoid the problematic dimensions of the scenario" which is possible to do in principle, but they just kind of ... didn't.

I felt the same way about the suggestion of Ungoliant being attracted to Nessa. Yes, there are probably ways to play such an angle which won't come off as massively homophobic, but what I heard in the session discussion didn't exactly fill me with confidence. I intend to address that point in greater detail in the Episode Discussion for the next upcoming session, when it's posted.
 
I really have to listen to the session, but... The idea that Ungoliant should have an interest in Nessa sounds a bit problematic. I'm having trouble understanding the whole thing... A being who wants light is interested in pairing up with a being who loves dancing and fast moving animals...? Common interests could include bats and perhaps, in Ungoliant's mind, fast spiders... I must be missing something - again, I should listen to the sessions...
 
My main complaint was that it put both Melkor and Ungoliant in the lonely hearts club, which seems like a redundancy of motivation. I apologize if I jumped the gun with the discussion, but since it's about this episode, I figured....oops.

The reason to consider that angle is that Ungoliant is described as lusting for light. How does one portray lust on screen? Well, you need a victim, and then.....
But I agree with...why Nessa? Why not someone else more suited to Ungoliant's interest? (The proto-balrogs seem the obvious choice, to be honest)

I realize that gender fluidity among the Valar or Maiar would potentially play well to a modern audience (tumblr would like it), and it is true that their bodies are changeable. So, why not? And likewise with not sticking to male/female for all the pairings. But I would consider this a strong divergence from the source material. Portraying that as something that is wrong or twisted about Ungoliant would serve the dual purpose of adherence to the original text and completely infuriating the audience. I don't think that's a note we're trying to hit!

Besides, Ungoliant's great hunger is pretty indiscriminate. She wants to consume the whole world and everyone and everything in it. Sure, her desire is twisted, and can be called 'lust'....but why focus that on only one of her interactions? Why wouldn't she have the same demeanor in all of her interactions with the Valar, including Melkor? I'm not actually suggesting that we make her a nymphomaniac (more unfortunate connotations there), but there should be a hungry edge to her for everyone she comes in contact with.
 
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