Session 2.02

Thuringwethil definitely takes bat shape.

I am fine with her being a bit carnivorous and being shown with bloody fangs at times.

Whether we like it or not, Sauron is associated with werewolves and vampires.
 
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About the Laiquendi: they obviously bring the Ents along - or the Ents follow shortly after their arrival. Question: do the Ents leave before or after the departure of the Entwives? (Or do the Entwives come to Ossiriand?)
The Ents could leave the Entwives for a 'short while' and then come back to the lands east of the Misty Mountains and find them gone. Or they could leave for Ossuriand because the Entwives have gone.
Thoughts? I know this is a season three issue.
 
I agree that showing what causes the Ents to lose the Ent-wives should be an opportunity we shouldn't miss.

I'll have to think about what I want there, but it does fit in with the 'migration' themes.

I don't think we want them separated too early. I mean...not lost lost until the 2nd Age, maybe?

From Letter 144:

"I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (SA 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin..."

It's implied that this happened long after their separation, so leaving the Entwives east of the Misty Mountains and allowing the Ents go to Beleriand creates that distance between them. We can make this more complex, though, if we want the ents and entwives to be together happily in Beleriand early in the 1st Age.
 
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They traveled together and then the Entwives got the wanderlust and moved on, wasn't it? Or do I have that reversed, the entwives preferred to stay put and the ents wandered off?
 
I'll have to look it up.

I suggest that the Ents and Entwives live east of the Misty Mountains initially but move to Ossiriand with the Laiquendi. Then, in the Second Age, they live in Eriador or roughly that area until the Entwives cross the Misty Mountains again and move to the Brown Lands.
 
Another thing.

When the Teleri arrive on the Island Ferry, they have been fetched by Ulmo after Finwë has asked him about Elwë. Only Elwë isn't on the island, and Ulmo doesn't return to Middle-earth with the Ferry again. This is very interesting. How does Finwë react to this? What happens when Finwë meets Olwë?

Finwë: 'Where is Elwë?'
Olwë: 'He is not with us. He is lost.'
Finwë: 'Lost?!'
Olwë: 'We searched but could not find him.'
Finwë: (Disappointed) 'Oh.'
Olwë: 'It is good to see you!'
Finwë: 'Yes, well... Eh... Is Ulmo going back to get Elwë?'
Ulmo: 'Enough of this!! Ossë has anchored the island!! Everyone stays where they are!!'
Finwë: 'But that was the whole point of going back!!'
(Ulmo leaves.)
Olwë: 'So...'
Finwë: 'Well, I guess I'll have to get back to Tirion...'
 
Re: Thuringwethil


Well, one thing I might point to would be the suggestion that the bats at the Battle of Five Armies were drinking blood. (It says they were "fastened vampire-like on the stricken.")

I would say that if she does drink blood, it is in bat-form, as does a Vampire Bat. We only see her in humanoid form to communicate.
 
Season 2: Based on Corey Olsen's rundown at the end of the Session (with some additions where I was not quite sure when something was supposed to fit in).

The Frame is Arwen and Celeborn in Lothlorien (with Galadriel) dealing with the loss of Celebrían
  1. Awakening of the Elves (YT 1050-1100) - We see the end of the last season from the elves point of view, including some of them being snatched in the darkness (the Hunter), the battle across the lake, and then eventually meeting Oromë at Cuivienen.
  2. Invitation - (YT 1101-2) The Valar decide to bring the elves to Valinor (despite Mandos' ominous rumblings), and when the invitation is extended, the elves seem uncertain. Ingwë/Finwë/Elwë visit Valinor as ambassadors to check it out first. They are suitably impressed with the Light of the Two Trees. Melkor's fate is discussed.
  3. The Great Debate (YT 1104-1105) - Discord arises among the elves. The Avari (39% of the elves) remain in Cuivienen with many of the unbegotten, and the others begin travelling through Middle Earth, Vanyar in the lead. Tom Bombadil cameo; meeting ents. The beginning of the Super Secret Necromantic Orc project - just hinted at, but we see Sauron and Gothmog.
  4. Choice of Destinies (YT 1115-1140) - The Nandor settle down before the Misty Mountains with Lenwë and his son Denethor (near the future site of Lothlorien). When Oromë returns for the Nandor, they refuse to cross the Misty Mountains. (YT 1115) The rest of the Teleri, under Elwë and Olwë move on, but are far behind the Vanyar and Noldor (smaller groups). Elwë meets Melian while returning from a visit to Finwë and is lost (YT 1130); Teleri elves (future Sindar Beleg and Mablung) search for Elwë. Vanyar and Noldor arrive at the shores of the Sea and meet Ulmo, who arranges to transport them to Valinor (via island) and meet the other Valar (YT 1132-3);
  5. Latecomers - Teleri left behind (Ossë again); introduce Círdan and Olwë as leaders in Elwë's absence (they were likely his deputies all along). Círdan, spends a lot of time listening to the water, forms his own concept of his role in the future of Middle Earth. Interlude: Finwë and the elves in Valinor miss Elwë and the Teleri; Calacirya/Tírion upon Túna (YT 1140) Split of Sindar/Teleri - Círdan and the Falathrim stay behind, while Ossë brings the Teleri under Olwë across. Orcs appear in Angband, but not yet 'in the wild';
  6. Elvenhome - Ossë anchors the island of Tol Eressëa off the coast of Valinor (YT 1150-1); Teleri and their Swanships; Alqualondë and the Vanyar leave Tírion (YT 1162-1165); Thingol and Melian reunite with the Sindar (YT 1152) (birth of Lúthien? YT 1200);
  7. Noontide of Valinor - Birth of Fëanor, death of Míriel (YT 1169-1170). Marriage of Finwë and Indis; birth of Fingolfin and Finarfin (and 2 daughters); Courtship of Fëanor and Nerdanel (YT 1185-1230)
  8. Trial -Melkor is released from prison (YT 1400); Noldor craftsmen under Aulë.
  9. In the Light of the Trees - Creation of the palantíri and later Silmarils (YT 1450); Galadriel refuses a lock of hair to Fëanor; Celegorm hunts with Oromë; something something Teleri (Finarfin's wife Eärwen?); Melkor being sneaky.
  10. Kinstrife - the feud between Fëanor and his half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin; (strained) friendship of Maedhros and Fingon the Valiant; Melkor in Valinor, befriending the Noldor and being creepy (stands over Míriel's body in Lorien);Fëanor threatens Fingolfin with a sword; Fëanor banished to Formenos with his sons - Finwë and many of the Noldor go with him (does Nerdanel?);
  11. Valar-centric (YT 1490-1492) - Melkor's deeds come to light and he flees Valinor; Fëanor shuts a door in Melkor's face. Fëanor teaches his sons to wield swords. The Valar try to figure out what went wrong and what to do about it now. Fëanor is 'forcibly' invited to a feast.
  12. Harvest Feast of Reconciliation (YT 1492-1495) - We need to see that the Noldor have a problem even with Melkor's lies exposed. Fëanor comes alone without any jewels or family; Aredhel's friendship with Celegorm and Curufin (she asks after them when they do not come to the Feast). Finrod and Amarië of the Vanyar. At the Feast, Fingolfin and Fëanor are reconciled. Melkor meets with Ungoliant
  13. Darkening of Valinor (YT 1495) - Melkor and Ungoliant enter Valinor and destroy the Trees, casting Valinor into darkness; they attack Formenos, and the sons of Fëanor flee; Finwë stands up to Melkor and is killed; the Silmarils are stolen; Melkor and Ungoliant flee north, pursued by Tulkas; theives' quarrel; Balrogs rescue Melkor (Sauron conspicuously absent)

Here's the current shape of the outline. I think that we need to move the birth of Fëanor to Episode 6. We are missing a 'plot' for this episode, and it will be a little awkward to go from baby Fëanor to married Fëanor all in one episode. I am also not clear when Thingol and Melian reunite with the Sindar, but that does need to happen. We don't have Menegroth yet this season, but we should have the beginning of Doriath.

I like how episode 5 hinges on Círdan now. Not only do I want him to be a real character, but I do want to see what his purpose is, and setting him as the link between Middle Earth and Valinor for the next 3 Ages is....good stuff.
 
I think that we need to move the birth of Fëanor to Episode 6. We are missing a 'plot' for this episode,
Yes, we can do it this way: Fëanor is born and Miriel dies before Ossë arrives with the Teleri - so that Finwë's loneliness is really emphasised.
 
like how episode 5 hinges on Círdan now. Not only do I want him to be a real character, but I do want to see what his purpose is, and setting him as the link between Middle Earth and Valinor for the next 3 Ages is....good stuff.
I agree! I'd like to see some kind of deal made between Olwë and Círdan, I don't know, something about Círdan staying behind to give latecomers - and Elwë- a possibility to leave for the West. But something goes wrong. Ulmo never returns.
Or do they (Olwë and Círdan) have different opinions on what to do? Maybe Círdan wants to stay and Olwë has given up on Elwë and believes he is dead?
 
I would also like a Rumil cameo - I want to show him being annoyed when Fëanor invents the Tengwar, or writing something at a desk in Tirion. Probably sometime in the range of seasons 8-10. This would just be a cameo, so he might not be named, but....it would still be Rumil.
 
Círdan becomes the leader of the Eglath, the Forsaken, those who want to go to Valinor but were left behind. That's a beautifully tragic piece of destiny.
 
Do we want to tie together the births of Fëanor and Lúthien? If we placed both of these events in episode 6, that could serve the 'Elvenhome' theme nicely as we develop an episode that tries to address what it means to be an elf. Both of them are exceptional, and responsible for driving the fate of many....but of course very different, and the fates of their parents are...actually, not so different as they appear at first glance. Both Finwë and Elwë are murdered over the Silmarils, and both Míriel and Melian die of grief (albeit for different reasons). But at any rate, the potential is not clear, as they would just be babies in these scenes.
 
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I agree! I'd like to see some kind of deal made between Olwë and Círdan, I don't know, something about Círdan staying behind to give latecomers - and Elwë- a possibility to leave for the West. But something goes wrong. Ulmo never returns.
Or do they (Olwë and Círdan) have different opinions on what to do? Maybe Círdan wants to stay and Olwë has given up on Elwë and believes he is dead?

YES. The Hosts discussed whether Olwë would know why Círdan was suddenly staying behind, and I want them to have that conversation. Olwë can still be confused and feel a bit betrayed (what do you mean you aren't going now??), but Círdan should at least attempt to explain.

Círdan is taking the long view here. The *really* long view. He knows that all the people of the Teleri are spread out throughout Middle Earth behind them. It's not just a matter of waiting for Elwë...he wants to wait for all the elves who will someday want to go to Valinor, but are currently too enamored of Middle Earth to make that journey. He wants to wait, there at the edge of Beleriand, to keep the door open for them so that they can have the chance to go...eventually. He knows that by making this decision, he is denying himself the trip to Valinor for many long ages. But...he wants to be that bridge, and make that sacrifice. It's a very momentous decision, and says a lot about the overall theme of the season (should the elves go to Valinor or not?), so I want to give it the proper weight.

I think that Círdan would encourage Olwë to go on now while he has the chance, but there are some issues there. If we give Círdan the gift of foresight, if we make this a message from Ulmo (or even Ilúvatar) that his heart has heard in the waters of the Sea....then...what does he know of Olwë's fate? Does he know that Olwë will be killed at Alqualondë? (I mean, we are doing that, right? We aren't going to wimp out and just kill a bunch of nameless Teleri, are we?) Does he express the hope that they will meet again, many ages hence, on the shores of Valinor? Or does he say something about how he knows they will never again see each other in life? Or does Olwë express the hope that they will meet again soon, and Círdan is just silently troubled by that?
 
Do we want to tie together the births of Fëanor and Lúthien? If we placed both of these events in episode 6, that could serve the 'Elvenhome' theme nicely as we develop an episode that tries to address what it means to be an elf. Both of them are exceptional, and responsible for driving the fate of many....but of course very different, and the fates of their parents are...actually, not so different as they appear at first glance. Both Finwë and Elwë are murdered over the Silmarils, and both Míriel and Melian die of grief (albeit for different reasons). But at any rate, the potential is not clear, as they would just be babies in these scenes.
Yes! I think we should try to do that, if it is possible.
 
YES. The Hosts discussed whether Olwë would know why Círdan was suddenly staying behind, and I want them to have that conversation. Olwë can still be confused and feel a bit betrayed (what do you mean you aren't going now??), but Círdan should at least attempt to explain.

Círdan is taking the long view here. The *really* long view. He knows that all the people of the Teleri are spread out throughout Middle Earth behind them. It's not just a matter of waiting for Elwë...he wants to wait for all the elves who will someday want to go to Valinor, but are currently too enamored of Middle Earth to make that journey. He wants to wait, there at the edge of Beleriand, to keep the door open for them so that they can have the chance to go...eventually. He knows that by making this decision, he is denying himself the trip to Valinor for many long ages. But...he wants to be that bridge, and make that sacrifice. It's a very momentous decision, and says a lot about the overall theme of the season (should the elves go to Valinor or not?), so I want to give it the proper weight.

I think that Círdan would encourage Olwë to go on now while he has the chance, but there are some issues there. If we give Círdan the gift of foresight, if we make this a message from Ulmo (or even Ilúvatar) that his heart has heard in the waters of the Sea....then...what does he know of Olwë's fate? Does he know that Olwë will be killed at Alqualondë? (I mean, we are doing that, right? We aren't going to wimp out and just kill a bunch of nameless Teleri, are we?) Does he express the hope that they will meet again, many ages hence, on the shores of Valinor? Or does he say something about how he knows they will never again see each other in life? Or does Olwë express the hope that they will meet again soon, and Círdan is just silently troubled by that?
I haven't listened to the whole session yet, but I think we need to discuss two basic options: one in which Círdan has foresight in some way, and one where the two decide to leave Círdan behind to wait for Elwë and the plan would be to 'take the next ferry' but that just doesn't happen.
 
I've been thinking about Eöl and our idea to make him one of the prominent Avari. He is of course, but I mean in the debate at Cuiviénen. I think it could be great. But does it make sense? He's such a loner. Would he argue with people at all? Wouldn't he just listen to the debate and think there's a lot of talk and then do his own thing? Maybe the debate is where he decides that his destiny lies apart from the larger groups of elves. Or he could kind of tag along with the elves who leave for Valinor more or less reluctantly but when the Nandor stop he has had it and takes off into the mountains where he bumps into some dwarves.
 
Eöl could walk out of the meeting where they are having the debate, expressing his disdain for everyone there and establishing him as a loner. I mean, he'd be unnamed at this point, but it would help to show the tension and high feelings in this debate, and how it is driving the elves apart to even discuss leaving Cuivienen.
 
Yes! I think we should try to do that, if it is possible.

Timeline-wise, it almost works. Fëanor is born in Year of the Trees 1169, and Lúthien is born in YT 1200. Whether or not that will work in our story....well...that depends.
 
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