Session 2.07 for S2E03

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Questions for the next SilmFilm session 2.07 on Friday the 12th of August 2016 are:

1) The Great Debate - what are the primary arguments for leaving/staying? Who makes them? How many different angles are there? What personal animosities develop between the participants?
2) How do we handle the Avari?
3) Do the Valar stay out of it? Do they have catspaws? Are there spies from Angband?
4) Is this an entire episode of People Talking? Or do other things....happen? Is this a full scale rebellion? Is there a council? Is this the 'Council of Elrond' scene for SilmFilm? Is there no council?
5) How do we introduce Mairon and Gothmog in this season?
6) What will the frame story be for this episode?
 
I'm just throwing in some arguments and opinions that might come up during the debate, for leaving and staying...

Leavers say:
  1. 'Valinor is fantastic'. The ambassadors will describe the beauty of Valinor, the magnificent Two Trees, the light, the gardens of Lorien etc.
  2. 'Middle-earth is dangerous, we need help'. There will be talk about the Hunter and other potential dangers. Who knows what will happen? We are safe in Valinor.
  3. 'It is our destiny to live with the Ainur'. Ingwë will speak of Manwë and Varda and all that they can teach the elves. Finwë has met Aulë and speaks passionately of his smithy and the things he does there.
Stayers say:
  1. 'Middle-earth is fantastic'.
  2. It is our destiny to live in Middle-earth.
  3. 'Look, you've been gone for a long while, we actually forgot about the Valar and all that. We have settled down, we like this place'.
  4. Who will protect the lesser creatures from the shadow if it returns?
  5. 'We don't need help'. The Hunter is gone, and we can handle basically every other possible danger.
  6. 'Why can't the Ainur come over here?'
  7. 'The invitation is a trap'. Some elves will still be afraid of Oromë, and perhaps think that the ambassadors are under a spell or something.
Some might also actually suggest a division, that those who want to leaves and those who want to stay does so.

Among the Avari, we should have those who are actively opposed to leaving and who have some really valid arguments, but also those who are just scared and don't like change. Also, I think we could introduce Eöl here. He could argue that the elves don't need help. He could be an Avari who stomps off during the heat of the debate, enraged and fed up with everyone.

I do not think that the Valar should spy on the debate. The primary reason for this is that I think that the Valar believe that, since the ambassadors are all super excited about the whole thing, everyone else will be as well, so they haven't anticipated a debate. I think it would be great if the debate erupts as kind of a surprise. If anything, the ambassadors are thinking that it will just take a simple description and their own enthusiasm to convince everyone to come along on the Journey. And the Vanyar are all for it, so maybe, initially that seems to be the response. When the ambassadors return, the light of the Trees have changed them, and many want to follow them and make them kings or at least leaders .But then someone begins to question the idea - probably one of the more prominent among the Noldor - and that opens up a door for others to follow with arguments against leaving. I don't think it should be an organised council at first, so if that happens, that should come as a result of a more spontaneous argument when the ambassadors return.

About drama: I don't think we want any kind of physical violence here. That comes later, in Valinor. But these are the events that lead to the first division, and beyond hair colour and favorite pastimes, there should be other things, so we need to add something more powerful, some differences in core values that become clear in this episode. I don't know exactly what those should be, but in any case, they define the four groups who become the Vanyar, the Noldor, the Teleri and the Avari and tie the members of each group together.
One thing that would be dramatic is that the debate could end with the Avari basically saying to the other that they should leave, that that they almost kick those who want to leave out.
 
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I can kind of give us some real world analogues as far as the core values of the kindreds, but I want to preface this by saying that this is by no means some kind of cultural value judgement, just parallels that I see.

The Vanyar are closest akin to human cultures that follow a more structured religiosity. Their faith is a defining characteristic, and affects most if not all aspects of their lives. They may appear (sometimes quite justifiably) a bit holier-than-thou, or too serious to the other kindreds.

The Noldor are our resident skeptics, closer to more secular societies. I feel that their arguments will resonate most easily with modern audiences. They are logical and pragmatic. Those that become Avari do so out of skepticism, a distinct lack of faith in the good intentions of the Valar. Those who become Calaquendi do so in search of the knowledge and understanding that the Valar can provide.

The Teleri are more similar to our pantheistic or polytheistic cultures. They may revere the Valar, but their spirituality is much less directed than that of the Vanyar. Less pragmatic than the Noldor, and more adventurous than the Vanyar, those who begin the journey to Valinor do so out of curiosity, and excitement. More superstitious than both the other kindreds, those who do not join the migration do so out of fear.
 
One question I want to raise is - will any of the Valar change their opinions between the debate where they decide to invite the elves, and then after they actually meet the elvish ambassadors? Because if any of the Valar have a changed opinion, that might motivate them to interfere.

Oromë will be there and witness the debate...right? He will bring the ambassadors back, I am assuming. Will he speak up? And will any others of the Valar come with him? Certainly not Manwë or Mandos, but...maybe Yavanna? Or Tulkas? I could see either of them volunteering to go back with Oromë and the ambassadors.

Of course, my preference is that the Valar *NOT* interfere - they should respect the autonomy of the elves.

Spies of Angband should stay away if Oromë is there.

I mean, ideally, it is the elves themselves who settle this debate and make their choices. There should be rancor, but no overt violence.

Will the decision of who will go and who will stay split up families? Will there be even numbers of men and women in the Calaquendi and Avari camps - or will more female elves want to stay and more male elves want to go (or some other skewed ratio)?


I know that Corey Olsen would like to limit the number of characters, not add to it, but there should be voices in this debate. We've introduced the 3 elven ambassadors, young Celeborn and (hopefully) Míriel. The Avari will need to have people to speak up for them, as well - voices of fear, voices that love Cuiviénen and will not be parted from it, voices that distrust the Valar. Tolkien gave us the names Morwë and Nurwë, but we need not teach these names to the audience...simply have a spokesman for the Noldor-Avari and Teleri-Avari. Having Eöl introduce himself as a disagreeable loner here makes sense - it will make his past quite mysterious when he shows up again in Nan Elmoth with the friendship of dwarves. I also think there is an advantage to giving at least one spoken line to Círdan. We don't 'need' him yet, but his reputation as the oldest elf in the 3rd Age requires that he be seen at Cuiviénen. This might be a good time for Olwë to speak in defense of his brother as well.
 
As for the Frame, this *might* be a good time for Elladan and Elrohir to visit their sister.

We introduced Arwen and Celeborn in Episode 1, and then added Galadriel in Episode 2. The arrival of the twins will tie Arwen's story to Rivendell - the audience will discover that she is Elrond's daughter and that her missing mother is thus Elrond's wife. The twins will also arrive with the news that her mentor really did depart, so we can introduce that subplot.

This may be...too much right now, and better saved for a later episode.


An alternative would be to present some 'drama' in Lothlorien. Perhaps there is a festival/remembrance that is from Valinor, and some of the elves refuse to participate. This would be a usual thing - they always refuse, every time it comes up. But perhaps Arwen has never visited during the festival before, so this is all new to her, and she's a bit surprised that they would let some misunderstanding go on for so long. We could then get to the first division of the elves, a disagreement that is even older, but still has consequences today. This would be our first allusion to the Quenya/Sindarin divide, but it would be glossed over so the audience doesn't learn too much about it.
 
One often underestimates the capacity of viewers to deal with story details; giving a few more characters names would probably result in viewers forgetting those names immediately - but they would hopefully remember or recognise them when they return, and most importantly, they won't care that they don't get everything. Experienced viewers will know that, if a character is important, the series will give them all relevant information in time. So, naming a character in a scene and then never returning to him/her isn't really a problem. Naming someone and then returning to him/her isn't a problem either as long as you name that someone again. As a rule of thumb, a viewer will most often need to get a peice of information three times to remember it.
That being said, I think we can introduce a few characters in this episode without naming them. Nowë, for instance, will most certainly be played by a well known actor. We don't have to name him at all until Elwë disappears (and perhaps not until he becomes shipwright and people start calling him Círdan). People will notice him and think 'hey there's that guy' and understand that they should keep track of him.
I think the only characters that have to be named among the ones you mentioned MithLuin are Olwë and Eöl.
 
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As for the Frame, this *might* be a good time for Elladan and Elrohir to visit their sister.

We introduced Arwen and Celeborn in Episode 1, and then added Galadriel in Episode 2. The arrival of the twins will tie Arwen's story to Rivendell - the audience will discover that she is Elrond's daughter and that her missing mother is thus Elrond's wife. The twins will also arrive with the news that her mentor really did depart, so we can introduce that subplot.

This may be...too much right now, and better saved for a later episode.


An alternative would be to present some 'drama' in Lothlorien. Perhaps there is a festival/remembrance that is from Valinor, and some of the elves refuse to participate. This would be a usual thing - they always refuse, every time it comes up. But perhaps Arwen has never visited during the festival before, so this is all new to her, and she's a bit surprised that they would let some misunderstanding go on for so long. We could then get to the first division of the elves, a disagreement that is even older, but still has consequences today. This would be our first allusion to the Quenya/Sindarin divide, but it would be glossed over so the audience doesn't learn too much about it.
Both your suggestions sound good to me, but I agree that the first one might be too much - we could save it for episode four.

What kind of festival do we imagine? Perhaps something to the memory of the kindling of the stars? That way, some elves could be focused on the wonder of the stars themselves, but some could focus on Varda, a small difference perhaps but along with differences in ritual details and special phrases used, that could be something that highlights the historical division. Most of the elves in Lothlorien are Moriquendi of course, so perhaps it's just Galadriel who expresses her views and traditions, maybe just in private conversation with Arwen and (or without) Celeborn. Celeborn would be accepting his wife's views of course, even if he doesn't share them completely.
 
Maybe we could see a bat taking off during the debate, and then follow it as it flies north, and see it descend by Angband into a cave mouth, and then we hear heated argument between Mairon and Gothmog (with Gothmog doing a lot of bellowing while Mairon's voice is more controlled and sharp), and the bat enters a room where Mairon is working on the SNecOP or something (and Gothmog is intruding, harassing him - so the bat has moved from discord to discord. We then show how the bad guys deal with their conflict before we cut back to the conflict among the elves, to show the differences in how they resolve conflict.
 
Maybe we could see a bat taking off during the debate, and then follow it as it flies north, and see it descend by Angband into a cave mouth, and then we hear heated argument between Mairon and Gothmog (with Gothmog doing a lot of bellowing while Mairon's voice is more controlled and sharp), and the bat enters a room where Mairon is working on the SNecOP or something (and Gothmog is intruding, harassing him - so the bat has moved from discord to discord. We then show how the bad guys deal with their conflict before we cut back to the conflict among the elves, to show the differences in how they resolve conflict.


Perhaps a good time to introduce Thruingwethil?
 
Ah, true - we actually hear Galadriel sing a hymn to Varda, and Gildor's wandering Noldor elves do the same. That would be a really good Moriquendi/Caliquendi distinction.

I was more thinking a remembrance of the Two Trees - maybe they hold one every yeni (144 years) and it's something the Silvan elves want nothing to do with. And so, Galadriel of course respects their wishes and sees no reason to coerce anyone to participate, while Arwen more wants to 'fix' the problem and make everyone live in peace. If we are going to paint Arwen as someone who wants to change the world in contrast to just accepting it as it is...we will need to have some sort of frame like this eventually - in this episode or later.

We should have a 'Galadriel trains Arwen to be a queen' arc to this season, as well.
 
I was more thinking a remembrance of the Two Trees - maybe they hold one every yeni (144 years) and it's something the Silvan elves want nothing to do with. And so, Galadriel of course respects their wishes and sees no reason to coerce anyone to participate, while Arwen more wants to 'fix' the problem and make everyone live in peace. If we are going to paint Arwen as someone who wants to change the world in contrast to just accepting it as it is...we will need to have some sort of frame like this eventually - in this episode or later.

We could show this on different levels. It could also be a family thing; Galadriel wants to honor the memory of the Trees, and Celeborn accepts this although it doesn't mean very much to him. Arwen has to find a way to handle a more or less awkward situation.
 
4) Is this an entire episode of People Talking? Or do other things....happen?

About that....

I agree that we need some character drama, not just people standing around talking about their disagreements.

It was suggested elsewhere (by Haakon) that Finwë and Míriel could be introduced in Episode 1 as an engaged couple. Since he is the one who is *most* changed by his voyage to Valinor (skeptic --> enthusiastic proponent), there would be some potential for some drama upon his return.

I think that we could have his excitement to return to Valinor be contagious to Míriel - she listens to him, sees his obvious love and wonder for what he is describing, and his desire to share it with her, and she wants to go. Her family, though, could be less approving. Perhaps her father is one of the strongest skeptics and becomes the voice of opposition that leads to the whole Avari thing? Perhaps her mother distrusts the complete 180° Finwë has shown and urges caution/delay/breaking off the engagement?

If so, one of the events early in this episode could be the wedding of Finwë and Míriel, and the undercurrent of tension there is what eventually erupts into the debate of 'should we stay or should we go?' This would also serve to connect the Avari to the Calaquendi, so we wouldn't just have 'random angry voices in the crowd.'

If Elwë is our primary protagonist for Episode 1, and Finwë becomes the focus of Episode 3, perhaps Ingwë can be given some significant screentime in Episode 2, to kinda round out the focus on 3 ambassadors? A discussion for Saturday, perhaps.
 
That being said, I think we can introduce a few characters in this episode without naming them. Nowë, for instance, will most certainly be played by a well known actor. We don't have to name him at all until Elwë disappears (and perhaps not until he becomes shipwright and people start calling him Círdan). People will notice him and think 'hey there's that guy' and understand that they should keep track of him.
I think the only characters that have to be named among the ones you mentioned MithLuin are Olwë and Eöl.

I agree that Círdan should never be named onscreen until his name becomes Círdan - too confusing to change his name. I do want him to appear onscreen and speak by the time we get to Episode 3, though (possibly even in Episode 1).

Eöl, I agree, should be named if he appears here. Olwë should be introduced as Elwë's brother, and can be named in passing, but we'll use his name later too.
 
I think that we could have his excitement to return to Valinor be contagious to Míriel - she listens to him, sees his obvious love and wonder for what he is describing, and his desire to share it with her, and she wants to go. Her family, though, could be less approving. Perhaps her father is one of the strongest skeptics and becomes the voice of opposition that leads to the whole Avari thing? Perhaps her mother distrusts the complete 180° Finwë has shown and urges caution/delay/breaking off the engagement?
I like this. It gives the episode more substance. Also, if we show a conflict between a daughter and her parents, perhaps that is a subject Arwen and Galadriel could touch on in a discussion. If not, it is at least something that brings color to Arwen's situation.
 
...we've also completely forgotten about Lenwë. He needs to be there, of course, but....what is his take on any of this? Is he a reluctant supporter of Elwë? Was he originally an enthusiastic proponent of the diaspora plan, and then shifted to this new project when the opportunity arose? Or did he have more in common with the 'we love Middle Earth' Avari, and only reluctantly agreed to follow Elwë?

Or was he just as gung-ho as any other of the Teleri, but changes his mind later?
 
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Good question. Both options are equally reasonable, I think. I imagine he's a peaceful (but enthusiastic) person, who might argue that they should take some time and try to find a consensus... But he could prefer staying, even if he thinks the Trees sound wonderful... Perhaps he is the kind of guy who agrees with the latest speaker. :)
 
Have fun tomorrow! I won't be able to join because my office is moving; and I won't be able to make the Episode 4 session either as I have jury duty. But I should be back after that.
 
Have fun tomorrow! I won't be able to join because my office is moving; and I won't be able to make the Episode 4 session either as I have jury duty. But I should be back after that.
Apparently it's on Sunday.
 
Oh really? I know the Mythgard Academy class this week got bumped; didn't realize SilmFilm did as well. Sunday 1 pm- 3 pm I *might* be able to make. Maybe.
 
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