Session 2.07 for S2E03

Well, that kinda bums me out, I specifically avoided scheduling board games tonight for this. Fiddlesticks!

I guess the upside is I shouldn't have much trouble making it to an Early Monday Morning thing.... I guess it won't be the end of the world if I stay up till 3.
 
So have you listened to the last session yet? What do you think of the idea that Arwen's mentor is the spokeswoman of the Avari (and is earlier on told by Ulmo in secret dreams that staying in Middle-earth would be the best thing to do)?
 
I did kinda think that the whole point of the Avari was that...they played no further role in the story. They quietly lived their lives in the woods of Middle Earth, the end. How one would end up in Rivendell is a bit confusing to me, and why Arwen would be mentored by her is also a question. I will admit that I strongly preferred having this character be Fingolfin's sister. Not just because that character has a name (and is thus not fully invented), but also because that character has a *reason* to care about Arwen's family in particular. Why would an Avari who has refused the invitation to Valinor all along suddenly (after 10,000 years or more!) decide to get on a ship to Valinor? Did the sea-longing just wake up? Did her spouse die? What? If the idea was just a generic 'the world is getting darker, time to go' - I don't see this character reacting to that. I think we are in danger of having *way* too many elves from Cuiviénen still around in the 3rd Age. Círdan is meant to be fairly unique that way. We've added Celeborn, with the stipulation that he was a young elf at the time (still giving Círdan seniority). To add a 3rd whom Arwen knows suggest that there are *plenty* of elves alive who remember Cuiviénen personally. This makes the distant primordial origin of the elves seem like it's just a few hundred years ago. I understand wanting to introduce Arwen's mentor in the main story, not just the Frame, but let's introduce her in the Frame, and eventually catch up to her in the real story. I am fine with a female Avari spokesman at Cuiviénen; I am less fine with this person deciding to leave Rivendell for Valinor in the 3rd Age for convenient plot purposes.


Ulmo is problematic, but then he always is. In Tolkien's stories, good guys do not pressure someone into an action they would not have chosen anyway. Particularly if said good guy is an elf. Elrond isn't going to try to talk Frodo into accepting the quest for destroying the Ring, any more than he talked Isildur into that course of action. Manwë seeks to persuade Melkor, but the idea of using force against him is considered extremely problematic - getting to the point of going to war is seen as a loss for Manwë in our telling of the story. We are later going to see the Valar stand by and watch the Noldor slaughter the Teleri without interfering. The Valar seem to want to stick to Star Trek's Prime Directive (at least some of the time) - don't interfere in the lives of the Children.

And then there's Ulmo, who clearly *does* interfere when he pleases, and takes Manwë's commands as a suggestion. We're going to see the rest of the Valar wall themselves into Valinor while Ulmo runs around giving dreams to Finrod and Turgon, and then hand-picking Tuor the way Melkor handpicks his cousin Túrin! So even if the rest of the Valar have decided to extend the invitation and then stand back and let the elves decide...Ulmo isn't going to see a problem with sending warning dreams to try to prevent what he sees as a coming disaster.
 
I have listened to the most recent session and there is a few things I do want to comment on.

  1. There seems to be some concern over comments made earlier in this thread about the spirituality of the elves. Let me clarify a bit. I am speaking specifically of the elves at the time of the debate here in S02E03. The Vanyar have not had a relationship with the Valar in general, yet every single one of them goes. This sets them apart from the other elves. Later, they all live on the slopes of Taniquetil. The hosts were saying that has less to do with their reaction to the Valar and more to do with where they belong. I would posit that what makes Valinor special IS the Valar. It is true that what the Vanyar have is not "religion", but a relationship. That is the same thing I heard every Sunday in church for decades. Like it or not, the Vanyar want a relationship, want communion, more than the other elves. As to the Noldor, their relationships with the Valar never mean as much to them as they do to the Vanyar. Just because Gildor & Co. sing to Varda in LoTR does not give us evidence to the contrary. I would argue that such a gesture would be singularly uncommon amongst the Noldor from the exile until the War of Wrath and non-existent at the beginning of S02. The Noldor obviously believe in the existence of the Valar. No one is arguing otherwise. But their thinking and decisions are not influenced by the existence of the Valar in the same way as the Vanyar. I am in no way suggesting that the Vanyar have it right and the Noldor do not, but to say that they do not approach things from different angles is not accurate.
  2. The Avari mentor thing ... I don't mind, but I'm not certain why we need that. It seems to add an additional level of complexity to create a character for the main story that is connected to the frame in a way we can only show in flashback seems unnecessary.
  3. To celebrate or not: The hope was to continue the celebration motif from E02. This does not mean that we cannot have the twins show up. The two concepts are in no way antithetical.
  4. Ulmo interfering in the decision-making process at this point seems way to subversive, even for him. The dreams idea ... I can live with.
 
I feel that the idea that the Mentor should be present during the debate is interesting but risky - there could be unforeseen consequences. When inventing characters, we should probably be careful not to give them too much weight, investing too much importance, too much story in them. They should be side or background characters. Inventing a prominent Avari spokesperson, who lives an interesting life during the First Age, living in the East, perhaps teaching Men to speak, then for some reason making a u-turn, returning to the western Middle-earth during the Second Age, settling down in Rivendell... It would make a fascinating story. Almost too fascinating - a story like that changes a lot of things, I would even go so far as to say that the existence of such a destiny changes the story of the Elves in Middle-earth. I presume she would be considered wise. If not - why? And if she's wise, what would be her relationship to the White Council? Those are just a couple of questions that need to be answered.

I agree that Fingolfin's sister could possibly be a better candidate.
 
If the question is, 'Would Ulmo interfere by sending dreams?' we can obviously make the argument that he indeed would, as he will in the future. Give him some water and an agenda, and unsettling dreams are on the way!

IF the question is, however, 'Would the elves even think to stay if no one gave them that idea?' I think the answer is still yes. Loving your home and not wanting to leave it is a very natural way of thinking (apparently even more so for elves and dwarves [and Valar] than it is for Men). Setting off on a journey for the promised land (I mean Valinor) is not a default choice. Also, in our script outline, we have some of the elves come up with a plan for a sort of 'elvish diaspora' in the aftermath of the War, so they aren't all in one place if disaster strikes, and also so they can explore more of the vast unknown world. Then they meet Oromë. Holding this plan in contrast to the 'let's everybody move to Valinor plan' should be fairly convincing.

If Ulmo sends dreams to reinforce the disquiet of those who weren't overly keen on leaving Cuiviénen anyway...everyone maintains agency and the elves do not become the pawns of the Valar. But I don't think we *need* Ulmo's interference to have different opinions in the debate.
 
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To add to Nick's remarks - it is true that the Noldor are not 'skeptics' the way a modern atheist is a skeptic. They certainly don't doubt the existence of the Valar (or of Ilúvatar, for that matter). But they do have some apparent trust issues, and they chafe at having boundaries and restrictions placed on them. They are the ones who are going to ask, 'But why....?' Having this illustrated in contrast to the Vanyar makes sense.


Edited to add:
At one point, we were going to have Finwë volunteer to go to Valinor with the Ambassadors to ensure that no one 'got one over' on Ingwë - he's going as someone who distrusts the idea and wants to make sure there is someone around asking the hard questions, not just people going 'rah, rah, isn't this great?' The fact that he comes back enthusiastic and gung-ho is a drastic change, which is why the story is about him. The unrest of the Noldor is something very natural to them, and they do view Valinor as a gilded cage. The Vanyar view Valinor as home. Clearly, we want to showcase this deep contrast. Calling it 'mistrust' rather than doubt or skepticism might be helpful, but there is definitely a thread of that present. The Noldor aren't too sure about how far they can trust the Valar, and even once they are convinced of their good intentions, they have some doubts as to their wisdom.

That is one of the reasons I want to include Amarië of the Vanyar. Sure, she's Finrod's beloved. But she is also a voice for, 'But why would anyone ever want to leave?' It is heavily implied that they marry after his death and rebirth and subsequent return to Valinor - she never rejects him, but she isn't willing to follow him away from Valinor. [Personally, I think she's crazy; if life hands you Finrod Felagund, you follow him like a lost puppy dog, werewolves or grinding ice not withstanding...but leaving Valinor was too much to ask of her, apparently.]
 
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Hello, all! I've been around Mythgard for awhile, but only joined the forums a moment ago. I had a thought about the debate while running the other day, and had to share.

In my mind, the Elves must have some similarity. I think a good place to start is a thirst for knowledge, but of differing kinds. These differences can be a factor in the debates. Example:

Avari: Desire to know "every leaf and twig" in Middle Earth. They feel called to learn of Middle Earth in this manner in order to protect it. Those who split off when they reach a new area (Green Elves) can express the same desire but in a new area.

Noldor: Called to protect Middle-Earth by learning how to make things. Eager to learn at the feet of Aule.

Vanyar: Called to protect Middle Earth by learning about the world from the Valar- particularly Manwe.

This is but the stub of an idea that comes largely from my study of Finnish. The Fins have different words for knowledge- to know (someone), to know how to do something, and to know about something. These seem to loosely fit the divisions of the elves (although they all possess portions in varying degrees) and might even lead to a linguistic difference (if the elves thought of knowledge and wisdom differently).

Just a thought-

Peter
 
An interesting thought, and considering the meaning of the name 'Noldor' certainly worth considering the nuance.

Here's what I get from Etymologies (pre-LotR Quenya/Sindarin):

know (Q) IS, (R) SAY; know about (Q) KHAN; knowledge (Q) KHAN,(Q, S) IS; having knowledge (Q), IS; have knowledge (S) ISKôr (Q, S) KOR

'ista' is knowledge, and of course is found in the name of the Istari, the wizards. 'istima' = having knowledge, wise, learned. 'istyar' = scholar. But it's also a name for the Gnomes (Noldor) -Istimor

'hanya' is understand, know about, be skilled in dealing with. 'handasse' is intelligence. 'handele' is intellect. 'handa' is understanding, intelligent.

'saira' is wise. 'sairon' is wizard.

Considering that the words for strife, quarrel and war all have the same root, it is interesting that elvish had different roots for different aspects of knowledge. I would say that hanya seems more innate whereas ista is learned. But it's difficult to draw the full distinction out or to differentiate ista from saira. And the truth of the heart is another root entirely.
 
Small practical matter, as I feel my way into participating more.

Is there a way to show, onscreen, the difference between Caliquendi and Moriquendi? Something with lighting maybe? To show the change in the three Ambassadors when they come back from Valinor in an obvious way. Maybe something that fades with time away from the trees, such that there's only a hint of it left in frame-Galdriel, for instance.
 
Yeah, there is. You can digitally pump up the light on an individual character, so that they appear subtly brighter than everything around them. I think we were kinda heading that way for the Ainur, and to a lesser extent, the Caliquendi.
 
Regarding Dave's special announcement at the start. My wife and I made independent lists. She had Eleanor on hers, I had Elanor on mine. I convinced her my spelling was best.
 
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