Session 2.13 for S2E09

[Haakon]

He could use the light from the Trees coming through his workshop window but I think perhaps he should be forced to go to the Trees and use the very purest and brightest light. He should really ask permission to do this (and be granted to do so by the Valar). This way we really push the holy nature of the Trees to the foreground and it makes Melkor's crime (and Ungoliant's) more monstrous and vile. I think it ought to be some kind of public ritual. Varda is there and hallows the stones. People are amazed, like when witnessing a miracle or the trick of the most accomplished illusionist (to give a modern reference).

 

[ouzaru]

REALLY, now? Did we read the same book? It quite clearly tells us that Fëanor forged the silmarils, and Varda blessed them, and all of Valinor made a big to-do about them. Soooo....nope, not going to let that one slide.

Yes, I realize we didn't get a step-by-step instruction manual, like Luthien teaching Beren how to walk like a wolf before they attempt deceiving the guards of Angband in the Lost Tales version of the Tale of Tinuviel. But to suggest that the chapter “Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor” doesn't include the forging of the silmarils is...a bit...off.

And yes, I know it has to be included for a reason, not just because. But I think that showing the process gives us the opportunity to see a bit about how Fëanor works.

Yeah, it mentions they "were forged". The same zoomed out, vague outlining as the rest. As you say, the detail is irrelevant in the book, and if we're going to make it relevant in the show, it should be, once again, for a better reason that "this would be cool to do".

And I think we're fine there, getting a better, more personal look at some of the things that make Feanor the tragic, mythological figure that he is ought to be plenty for several scenes of toiling over a hot furnace and a gem-cutter's table. I didn't come in and say "nah" just to be contrary, I wanted to make sure we had a good direction to take it, and I didn't have one at the beginning of that first post.

 

[ouzaru]

I would imagine that Fëanor either had to capture the light as it shone from the trees, or use the dews that contain the light. Either is an option, and the light of the Trees can shine into his workshop, so it's not like we have to show him going to 'fetch' light.

Is there not a scene where he brings them out to show off, and then even he is taken aback by the light of the trees being caught and the new beauty of his creation? I seem to recall this pretty vividly, that even Feanor is awed by the first reflected light of the trees from the Silmarils, and that it happens in a public place with everyone watching. Am I out of my gourd?

 

[MithLuin]

I do not recall such a scene, so I don't know where you got that impression.

 

[MithLuin]

Yeah, it mentions they "were forged". The same zoomed out, vague outlining as the rest. As you say, the detail is irrelevant in the book, and if we're going to make it relevant in the show, it should be, once again, for a better reason that "this would be cool to do".

And I think we're fine there, getting a better, more personal look at some of the things that make Feanor the tragic, mythological figure that he is ought to be plenty for several scenes of toiling over a hot furnace and a gem-cutter's table. I didn't come in and say "nah" just to be contrary, I wanted to make sure we had a good direction to take it, and I didn't have one at the beginning of that first post.

Not quite. It explains how Fëanor was at the zenith of his power, how he sought to preserve the light of the Trees, and how he labored long and in secret over this project. The substance the silmarils is made of is described, with the caveat that only Fëanor knows the secret. Then we get the reactions, with everyone being filled with wonder and Varda hallowing them. This goes on for a full page...or as much time is devoted to Finrod's first meeting with Men or Fingolfin's battle with Morgoth. The reason the details are left out is not because they are unimportant, but because they are secret and the chronicler doesn't know them.

In that time were made those things that afterwards were most renowned of all the works of the Elves. For Fëanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Bleessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labor, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils

As three great jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the kingdom of Arda. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as the body to the Children of Ilúvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvellous than before.

All who dwelt in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Fëanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no moral flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them. The heart of Fëanor was fast bound to these things that he himself had made.​

 

[ouzaru]

I do not recall such a scene, so I don't know where you got that impression.

This is baffling to me. I think I much prefer the capturing of the light in the silmarils, it reads as way more (potentially) covetous, but where on earth did I get the other sequence from?

 

[MithLuin]

I honestly don't know?

I've re-read the Book of Lost Tales version of the creation of the silmarils, and other than giving a much more detailed description of how the Noldor make gems (writing about the mechanics of things is much more common in the Lost Tales), it's...essentially the same story. They are blazing in Fëanor's workshop after he adds the lights of the trees to his secret crystal substance.

 

[ouzaru]

Best way to figure this out: write a novel featuring a scene similar to this and see who sues me for copyright infringement.

 

[Haakon]

I find I'm having trouble picturing the intensity of the light of the Silmarils. If they shine like stars all the time, nobody can bear to look at them. So they should shine less intensely. But still, one is used as a star. So, what's it going to be? A changing light? Then, how does it change?

I'd prefer to have the stones created first and then Fëanor catches the light of the Trees in them, rather than having him using the collected light from the vats during the shaping of the stones. I think. Or the other way around? Oh, I don't know....

 

[Haakon]

They are blazing in Fëanor's workshop after he adds the lights of the trees to his secret crystal substance.

Ok so there is a version where he adds the light in secret? Ok, fair enough.

 

[Haakon]

How do we show Melkor sowing the seeds of doubt and rebellion among the Noldor. The challenge being that Melkor needs to be shown in an absolutely positive way with nothing villainous coming from him,

It could begin with Melkor asking the Noldor about Middle-earth and how things have been over there, and about how they journeyed to Aman. He could innocently ask if they met any of the other Children of Iluvatar. Didn't they? Oh you didn't know about them? He could leave it at that, maybe give a straightforward summary of that part of the Ainulindalë, and then let the Noldor ask the questions. Build on the fears and suspicions the Elves give away. It probably shouldn't happen all in one scene. The Noldor should come back and ask him more questions. He could be a little reluctant.

 

[Haakon]

the decline of Fëanor. How and in what ways does he shift and change under Melkor's influence? What role do we see the palantiri taking in his decline?

I think we should show Fëanor becoming more and more the champion of what's right. He's basically good, so for example, he creates the Silmarils to preserve the light of the Trees. He senses that Melkor isn't to be trusted, so he sees himself as Melkor's chief opponent. This sense of having a hidden enemy makes him feel there is a danger, that he and all Elves are in danger, and that all those who do not understand this are obstructing justice, in a way. He feels more and more that he is the only one who understands this, and that others, like his brothers, are decieved. Then comes the time when he hears that Finwë and he as the eldest shall be replaced as king and heir. This causes him to lose sight of Melkor as the enemy, and opens the possibility to be influenced by Melkor to construct weapons. He still sees himself as the champion of Right, and is increasingly paranoid.

 

[Phillip Menzies]

We could avoid the whole shape question by making them so brilliant that you never see a defined shape, just a glow in Feanor's hand.. but that's sort of cheating.

Do the silmarils always glow with the bright burning light, or are they subdued at times? I don't imagine that its the sort of thing like the Phial of Galadriel where you can call for the brilliance at command; but do they wax and wane like the light from the Trees? This is a factor in how we depict them onscreen.

I suggested the waxing and waning on the facebook page, but in sync with the trees. I imagine that at the destruction of the trees they would go dark for a period and then when everyone thinks they are dead like the trees they would come forth with such a brilliant light that never dims.

 

[MithLuin]

I find I'm having trouble picturing the intensity of the light of the Silmarils. If they shine like stars all the time, nobody can bear to look at them. So they should shine less intensely. But still, one is used as a star. So, what's it going to be? A changing light? Then, how does it change?

Heh, there's an essay for that

http://themidhavens.net/heretic_loremaster/2009/09/move-over-feanor/

Basically, yes, we can have them 'shiny' in Valinor, but they can't truly be blazing as brightly as a star when Fëanor is wearing them! We're going to have to go for variable brightness, I think. But not call attention to that, maybe.

 

[MithLuin]

I suggested the waxing and waning on the facebook page, but in sync with the trees. I imagine that at the destruction of the trees they would go dark for a period and then when everyone thinks they are dead like the trees they would come forth with such a brilliant light that never dims.

They will be in Morgoth's hands at that point, so the elves won't see them. We can't have the elves or the Valar thinking the Light of the silmarils has died...can we?

 

[Richol Richards]

On the topic of light capture, if the light is living and cannot be quenched by darkness, perhaps Fëanor could use some cleverly crafted device to capture the light? I'm thinking of something similar to the system the ancient Egyptians used to reflect light into tombs. It could be a small, easily portable collecting chamber that has mirrors/reflective metal in the interior and also on the inside of the lid to bounce the light into the chamber. Presumably when the lid closes this light won't die as it is self-sustaining? Maybe Fëanor gets the idea for this device from the mirrors used to reflect the light of the Trees up in Tirion? (I think that was a set design idea somewhere on the boards). I don't know how rudimentary this sounds, especially if we want to want to keep a strong mystical element to all the steps in the creation, but I figured I'd toss it out there anyway. Here are a couple of videos touching on the subject:

Disclaimer: I've probably seen only one or two episodes of Myth Busters total, and I'm not an expert on this particular subject, but I'm basically sharing for the concept. Thoughts?

 

[Haakon]

I suggested the waxing and waning on the facebook page, but in sync with the trees. I imagine that at the destruction of the trees they would go dark for a period and then when everyone thinks they are dead like the trees they would come forth with such a brilliant light that never dims.

I'm not sure I understand the logic here. I thought Fëanor had captured the light in the stones, not that the stones were in some kind of unseen contact with the Trees.

 

[MithLuin]

Lost Tales version: After we get a detailed description of Noldor gem making (what materials they use, etc), we get to the making of the silmarils:

Then arose Fëanor of the Noldoli and fared to the Solosimpi [Teleri] and begged a great pearl, and he got moreover an urn full of the most luminous phosphor-light gathered of foam in dark places, and with these he came home, and he took all the other gems and did gather their glint by the light of white lamps and silver candles, and he took the sheen of pearls and the faint half-colours of opals, and he ?bathed them in phosphorescence and the radiant dew of Silpion [Telperion], and but a single tiny drop of the light of Laurelin did he let fall therein, and giving all those magic lights a body to dwell in of such perfect glass as he alone could make nor even Aulë compass, so great was the slender dexterity of the fingers of Fëanor, he made a jewel, and it shone of its own...............radiance in the uttermost dark; and he set it therein and sat a very long while and gazed at its beauty. Then he made two more, and had no more stuffs, and fetched the others to behold his handiwork, and they were utterly amazed, and those jewels he called the Silmarilli....
​

It is, generally, a very good thing that Tolkien moved away from this level of detailed description of magical events to much more 'and then magic happened!' later. We will have to show something, but probably not this. I merely put it here as a reminder of Tolkien's very early conception of what 'making the silmarils' looked like.

 

[Haakon]

Lost Tales version: After we get a detailed description of Noldor gem making (what materials they use, etc), we get to the making of the silmarils:

Then arose Fëanor of the Noldoli and fared to the Solosimpi [Teleri] and begged a great pearl, and he got moreover an urn full of the most luminous phosphor-light gathered of foam in dark places, and with these he came home, and he took all the other gems and did gather their glint by the light of white lamps and silver candles, and he took the sheen of pearls and the faint half-colours of opals, and he ?bathed them in phosphorescence and the radiant dew of Silpion [Telperion], and but a single tiny drop of the light of Laurelin did he let fall therein, and giving all those magic lights a body to dwell in of such perfect glass as he alone could make nor even Aulë compass, so great was the slender dexterity of the fingers of Fëanor, he made a jewel, and it shone of its own...............radiance in the uttermost dark; and he set it therein and sat a very long while and gazed at its beauty. Then he made two more, and had no more stuffs, and fetched the others to behold his handiwork, and they were utterly amazed, and those jewels he called the Silmarilli....
​

It is, generally, a very good thing that Tolkien moved away from this level of detailed description of magical events to much more 'and then magic happened!' later. We will have to show something, but probably not this. I merely put it here as a reminder of Tolkien's very early conception of what 'making the silmarils' looked like.

This really has the feel of the alchemist in his workshop. I think you're right, we should do something a bit different. But I do like the idea that he goes to the Teleri and gets clear pearls. We should use that. (Let's not show how he collects luminous light from foam)

 

[ouzaru]

I find I'm having trouble picturing the intensity of the light of the Silmarils. If they shine like stars all the time, nobody can bear to look at them. So they should shine less intensely. But still, one is used as a star. So, what's it going to be? A changing light? Then, how does it change?

I'd prefer to have the stones created first and then Fëanor catches the light of the Trees in them, rather than having him using the collected light from the vats during the shaping of the stones. I think. Or the other way around? Oh, I don't know....

You've got it all wrong, starlight as in "gentle, silvery light, as though it were a moonless night", not "atomic fire born of nuclear fusion". Frankly, I think the best way to handle it would be with computers: whenever they are on screen, the intensity of the light remains the same (except when they "blaze" or otherwise burn anything evil) regardless of distance. So the brightness should be about the same as, y'know, the North Star on a moonless night.