Session 3.13 - S3Ep8: The Burning of the Ships

[MithLuin]

Yes, Círdan's reaction to the ship-burning should emphasize the strong loss of destruction of beautiful work, when he finds the burned out hulls of the Teleri ships. I like the idea of Maedhros juuuuust skirting the idea of comparing Fëanor's proposed course of action to Morgoth's theft of the silmarils. Them's fighting words, but he has to say it in such a way that Fëanor just is more set on his decision, rather than angry at Maedhros. (Angry is okay; angry enough to want to severely punish him is not)

 

[Marielle]

When it comes to Amros' reaction... what if we go in an unusual direction, and have him just be sort of numb to it all? If he, from now on, is less of a character than an automaton, acting when urged by his father or brothers but showing no initiative, impulse, or desire for the rest of the series? In a way, we could have a character reflect later, both twins died that night. Amros could, if we wish, even become merciless -- not cruel, but fully detached. In a short while, he has lost his grandfather, his mother, the twin he shares a name with, and his father. He could just be... broken.

EDITED TO ADD: I agree completely with Dave that Feanor accidentally killing his son and being unable to face his culpability and blaming the Valar and his son is far more interesting than the "so mad I'll murder my own child in cold blood" version. And his redirected grief is enough facet the scriptwriters and actor could play with.

 

[Marielle]

I have a image that won’t go away: Maedhros walking the bloody shores of the Haven, sword still unsheathed, finding Amras lying dead in the mire, a smile on his face for the first time since the Ships burned.

 

[Faelivrin]

When it comes to Amros' reaction... what if we go in an unusual direction, and have him just be sort of numb to it all? If he, from now on, is less of a character than an automaton, acting when urged by his father or brothers but showing no initiative, impulse, or desire for the rest of the series? In a way, we could have a character reflect later, both twins died that night. Amros could, if we wish, even become merciless -- not cruel, but fully detached. In a short while, he has lost his grandfather, his mother, the twin he shares a name with, and his father. He could just be... broken.

An interesting idea. But it must be carefully done... Amros is the guy who initiates the Third Kinslaying with a new vow. He has to be set up as somebody who can make decisions like that.

After sacking Doriath, all 3 surviving Sons of Feanor decided to ignore the Havens of Sirion and pretend they didn't have a Silmaril there, for 26 years. Even for 11 years after the Oath started to "torment" them in some way for breaking it. Amros is the one who "resolved to win the Silmaril" and started the Third Kinslaying, with Maedhros and Maglor sort of reluctantly tagging along.

Amros needs to be a person capable of both showing remorse and making ruthless decisions: trying to break the Oath for 15 years (with or without any prodding from conscience/repentance and/or his older brothers), resisting torment for 11 more years while trying to break the Oath -- actions which strongly suggest at least remorse and probably repentance. Then, he gives in/changes his mind and attacks the Havens rather determinedly.

EDIT: I misremembered, he "resolved to win the Silmaril", not "vowed to destroy the Havens." Less vicious than I thought.

 

[Marielle]

An interesting idea. But it must be carefully done... Amros is the guy who initiates the Third Kinslaying with a new vow. He has to be set up as somebody who can make decisions like that.

You're right, of course. I had forgotten that. And the poor guy really deserves a storyline, after what we've just done to him. But the concept of him as a living, broken emblem of the consequences of their actions is just so tempting!

 

[Faelivrin]

Well "Unable to find true joy in Middle-earth" doesn't require "Emotionless like an automaton." Just look at Gwindor. So it can still work.

Amros can become joyless in profound grief for his twin. And whether or not that works, I think Maedhros after his torment isn't going to find joy or mirth in anything other than killing orcs and monsters.

So, lots of horrible consequences for horrible or just plain stupid actions. This is the House of Feanor, after all.

 

[Marielle]

I don't think we want to go quite that far with Maedhros, especially if we do with Amros. A lot of Maedhros' likability is going to rest on his love for his brothers, friendship with Fingon, and assistance in rearing Elrond and Elros, after all, and I think he'll need to smile and laugh with them, even if only occasionally and perhaps with a constant twinge of melancholy, for that to work. But having an almost unholy glee at the slaughter of orcs? Sure.

And we can go further than "unable to find true joy" with Amros, I think -- we could go to "doesn't care to find joy, at all". He's there, he's existing, but he's not living. He's got a job to do, an Oath he resents and hates, keeping him from going home and reuniting with his brother -- if the Oath didn't make that impossible. Maybe, in his darkest moments, when he fears his twin is lost in the Darkness, of breaking the Oath and casting his own soul into that dark, as the only possible way of reunion? We could depict his resolution upon attacking the Havens as a death wish.

 

[Faelivrin]

When I say "no joy" I don't mean "no pleasure in doing anything, ever" but rather I mean, "not happy in life," "no great pleasure or joy". I don't think either character should be come a characature.

I don't think we want to go quite that far with Maedhros, especially if we do with Amros. A lot of Maedhros' likability is going to rest on his love for his brothers, friendship with Fingon, and assistance in rearing Elrond and Elros, after all, and I think he'll need to smile and laugh with them, even if only occasionally and perhaps with a constant twinge of melancholy, for that to work. But having an almost unholy glee at the slaughter of orcs? Sure.

I don't think that really works. He's going to be completely wrecked and in the Silm, he never emotionally recovers. Again, look at Gwindor, who suffered far less. He never laughed again, and only rarely smiled when he saw Finduilas (before she started loving Turin...). His life is ruined, as he says to her later. It's not like he has a death wish, though, as he reproaches Turin while dying.

I can imagine Maedhros can smile once in a while, rarely. He laughs at Thingol, but out of racist contempt. Actually laughing for mirth, I can't see. But I could imagine raising foster-children as the first thing in a long time that he actually enjoys. That would be sweet.

And we can go further than "unable to find true joy" with Amros, I think -- we could go to "doesn't care to find joy, at all". He's there, he's existing, but he's not living. He's got a job to do, an Oath he resents and hates, keeping him from going home and reuniting with his brother -- if the Oath didn't make that impossible. Maybe, in his darkest moments, when he fears his twin is lost in the Darkness, of breaking the Oath and casting his own soul into that dark, as the only possible way of reunion? We could depict his resolution upon attacking the Havens as a death wish.

Oh great, now you've got me envisioning him like Crazy!Denethor. "Burn! We will all burn!" That could be really, really disturbing. (Disturbing is good -- every Kinslaying should be.)

I don't want him to behave that way constantly for 540 years, though. "In his darkest moments" is enough. He's got to be more functional than Crazy!Denethor most of the time. Mental illness is fortunately only sometimes that dramatic (and that applies to what I said about Maedhros, too).

But we can make up whatever "torment" we want for the Oath near the end. What exactly it does to torment them, Tolkien never said. I was imagining something like the Ring tormenting Frodo -- the constant intrusive thoughts of desire for the Silmaril, until the light of the Sun and Moon seems sick and dreary. What if that's combined with visions of being cast into the Everlasting Darkness... and of your twin who might be there even now? And Amros' response is to dredge up the worst of his misery at that moment when he heard Amrod screaming in Lammoth. Your idea that he actually desires to go to the Darkness is... really, really disturbing, like perhaps darker than I'm comfortable with. It would be a very contrastive reason for him to try to break the Oath, compared to Maedhros and Maglor who do so out of remorse. But so, so dark. :/

Until that time comes up after the Second Kinslaying, though, Amros needn't be mired in nonstop depression every year.

 

[Marielle]

I don't think either character should be come a characature.

With this, I agree 6545%. I'm suggesting extremes, I know, but only because I'm confident that any ideas we settle on can be handled sympathetically and with nuance. Disturbing is good, as you said, but only if it's not on at 150% all the time. If we go my way with Amros, let's have him be more like book Denethor than film.

I'm not sure I quite agree with you about Maedhros (for one, I think his contempt is less racist -- an implication of a sense of biological superiority -- than situational -- you've nearly got everything and everyone wiped out, and you call yourself king?) but I don't quite disagree, either. I don't think he has a "successful recovery", mentally and emotionally, from his torment, and he should be harder than before. I'm willing to give you laughing -- that can be beyond him. But small, sad smiles, rarely given... I'd save these in our back pockets, for when we really want to punch the audience in the gut.

We'll have to think more about what the "Torment of the Oath" is. I like your idea as a starting point.

 

[MithLuin]

Maedhros does not give up to the extent that Gwindor does, and Maedhros' brokenness does not match Gwindor's agedness. For whatever reason, Maedhros comes back 'with a vengeance' that Gwindor seems to be...lacking. Maedhros' ordeal *is* worse - but that means that in the end he wasn't like a prisoner or torture victim, but "like one that returns from the dead." Which is a thing elves can do. So, his time on Thangorodrim is explicitly compared to spending time in Mandos. Maedhros is radically changed, but his spirit is not broken.

I do not want to portray post-Thangorodrim Maedhros as depressed and listless. That...doesn't fit. I am fine with portraying him as someone with chronic unhealed pain, and plenty of fury. A person like that wouldn't laugh or smile easily either. What he gained was wisdom and humility, but he also takes on the burden of leadership very naturally. There is no question in his mind that his brothers will do as he says - and he's mostly right. Maedhros will break a second time after the Unnumbered Tears. That battle started out being called the Union of Maedhros - it was on him, his plan, his idea, and it failed utterly and resulted in Fingon's death (and injuries for all surviving sons of Fëanor). That...takes him down a peg. Also, and more importantly, it was his last attempt to keep the Oath focused solely on Morgoth. After the failure of that battle, it's really hard for the Fëanoreans to ignore that there is a silmaril in Doriath. We will see the torment of the Oath weighing heavily on Maedhros after the failure of the 5th Battle.

Amras could go in several directions. He could be really into killing things, reckless, and not worried about whether or not he lives or dies. He could hate his family and want nothing to do with his brothers or the war against Morgoth. He could be a shell, wandering around and going through the motions, only speaking when spoken to. We likely will have to pick one, even though actual grief can look like different things at different times in the same person. I am willing to show one form of grief for him in the immediate aftermath of Amrod's death, and another after the death of Fëanor. But we'll sorta have to pick his persona for the entire First Age at that point.

 

[Faelivrin]

I would accept Amros behaving somewhat like Denethor once, in the leadup to the Third Kinslaying, if you want. And yes, I mean book Denethor -- I've tried to forget the films.

I do not want to portray post-Thangorodrim Maedhros as depressed and listless. That...doesn't fit. I am fine with portraying him as someone with chronic unhealed pain, and plenty of fury. A person like that wouldn't laugh or smile easily either.

You have good points. But I don't mean listless or permanently broken. I mean grim, severely traumatized and not healed. PTSD, and not living in happiness. And lots and lots of rage. His former zest and ardor for life remains only as fury and a thirst for vengeance.

What he gained was wisdom and humility,

Well... less arrogance. But humility? .... no, not really.

Amras could go in several directions. He could be really into killing things, reckless, and not worried about whether or not he lives or dies. He could hate his family and want nothing to do with his brothers or the war against Morgoth. He could be a shell, wandering around and going through the motions, only speaking when spoken to. We likely will have to pick one, even though actual grief can look like different things at different times in the same person. I am willing to show one form of grief for him in the immediate aftermath of Amrod's death, and another after the death of Fëanor. But we'll sorta have to pick his persona for the entire First Age at that point.

I agree he should show grief in different ways at different times. But I don't want him to be a "shell" except temporarily. I think I would prefer him to finally settle on bitter, unhappy, and unfriendly to his brothers (maybe except Maedhros, who didn't help kill Amrod). Immortals can hold a grudge a long time if they want.

 

[Marielle]

I think MithLuin is right that we can divide Amros' reactions to pre- and post-Feanor's death. If we do so, I'd vote we have him grieve "hot" after Amrod's death -- let's go get Morgoth for this, and I'll work out my feelings by punching things! -- and cold after Feanor's -- so... this is how things are going to be from now on, huh?

I don't know about you, but when reading about tragic character, resignation hits me as hard as anything else. A character who has given up hope is more pitiable, if written well, even than one railing or heroically struggling against their fate. But Amros, perhaps, first and best of any of the rest, really understands what the Oath is and means, and only sees one way out. Duty, or love of life (in the most basic sense), or of his remaining family might hold him back for a time, but Amros might become a matter of when, rather than if, he gets himself killed.



(And I'm with you about film Denethor, Faelivrin. I love the films visually, and I appreciate how much the films have made me think about Tolkien's actual work, meanings, and intentions, and I still hold the LotR films are solid, enjoyable stories taken in isolation, but... there's a few characterizations that drive me up the wall. Denethor is one of them)

 

[Faelivrin]

I think MithLuin is right that we can divide Amros' reactions to pre- and post-Feanor's death. If we do so, I'd vote we have him grieve "hot" after Amrod's death -- let's go get Morgoth for this, and I'll work out my feelings by punching things!

But he should be more angry at Feanor and his brothers, and fearlessly show it. What more could Feanor do to punish him? Kill him, too? Of course he takes it out mostly on the Orcs, but he chews out Feanor and shouldn't shy from pissing on his brothers, too. And the audience should feel like they totally deserve it.

(This should also be the episode when all remaining doubt about Feanor's sanity is erased from audience minds.)

But Amros, perhaps, first and best of any of the rest, really understands what the Oath is and means, and only sees one way out.

I disagree, in part. My impression is that none of them take the effort to truly think about what it really means, not in its entirety until they are contemplating premeditated, unprovoked murder -- of Finrod and those loyal to him, both in preparation for killing him and in learning afterwards that he's dead. Not unless one of them starts feeling remorse over Alqualonde, which I don't think will happen yet.

He may understand more than his brothers, though. I think the Burning is called "the evil fruit of the Kinslaying" in one draft. Amros can realize, even if his brothers don't get it yet, that this has happened because of the Oath, the Kinslaying, and the Doom. Not because Amrod was guilty of breaking the Oath but because they are all guilty of swearing it.

Whether that becomes remorse over Alqualonde, I don't know. We will have to decide when and if each brother shows (or secretly feels) remorse over that. I initially was totally agnostic (except that Curufin, Celegorm, and Caranthir apparently don't ever repent). But I realized that when Maedhros "begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman" he didn't mention the Kinslaying, even to Finrod. So... that suggest he doesn't really feel bad about it yet. On the other hand, I am not against Amros showing remorse at some point, since he will try to break the Oath.

 

[MithLuin]

Maglor will obviously show remorse and understanding at some point, as he does write the Noldolantë. We don't know when that happens, though - before the end of the First Age, certainly, but likely not before Fëanor's death. He gets it. Maglor and Maedhros will discuss breaking the Oath after the Third Kinslaying. They certainly know it's wrong to keep it at that point. And yet.... Maedhros stands aside at the shipburning, but I agree that doesn't mean he's necessarily repented of Alqualondë at that point. His focus is on regret for the betrayal of the other Noldor, not betrayal of the Teleri (yet).


I think it likely that you and I have different impressions of Maedhros, Faelivrin. Which is fine - the books are very open to interpretation, and I unapologetically like Maedhros an awful lot. But yes, humility. Not like humble beggar monk on the side of the road humility, but still *definitely* more humble than before. He loses his right hand, and obviously has to depend on others for his rescue and his recovery. His first act when he's back on his feet and in charge again? Acknowledging Fingolfin as High King and effectively ending his father's feud with his half-brother once and for all. Sure, that is in character for Maedhros and has some very practical motivations behind it (expediency lies behind Maedhros' actions as leader). But it also shows much more humility than *anyone* would expect to see from the House of Fëanor - he *chose* to become the Dispossesed. And therefore...yes. That is something he gained from his captivity. It's not without dilution, but it's there.

More importantly, his ability to maintain friendships with the other Noldor (and even some dwarves and Men) after this speaks to not only his diplomatic skill, but his ability to not see the world solely from his own viewpoint. His friends include Fingon and Finrod and Azaghal. And prior to Nargothrond, he does keep his brothers out of trouble. All of the Noldor are proud, and the Fëanoreans doubly so, and yet Maedhros, even as leader, is not chiefly known for that or in that way.


But look at this another way. Pride was a key element of Fëanor's rebellion. He could not take 'no' for an answer when the Teleri denied him their ships. A rather obvious answer to 'What do you do if you need ships and no one will give them to you?' is to...build your own. And Fëanor never considers that possibility, because he's in too much of a hurry. It's very much his way or the end of his sword. Maedhros is much...less...my way or the highway.

 

[Faelivrin]

I don't know that we necessarily disagree about it, but that I use the word 'humility' more narrowly -- for a lack of pride. I don't disagree with anything you just said.

Partly I'm thinking of the final kinslaying after the War of Wrath. The Valar tell Maedhros and Maglor they have no more right to the Silmarils, and summoning them back to Valinor (after having exiled them for their Oath) implies that Manwe even had some plan to unbind the Oath. They admitted what they had done was wrong, and felt pretty bad. But they were too proud, even then, to accept the judgement of the Valar. Even Maglor wouldn't give up his claim to the Silmarils.

And that letter the brothers sent to Thingol was arrogant. That's not all on the younger brothers. The Oath compelled them to demand the Silmaril, and maybe to make threats, but not to be rude and haughty about it.

I think his conduct is generous and much nearer to what I call humble with the other Noldor.

 

[MithLuin]

Well, who wrote that letter? Certainly sounds like Celegorm and Curufin were behind it to me

I do not think it was pride, primarily, that stopped Maedhros and Maglor from accepting Eonwë's...offer. Fear of breaking the Oath and actually cursing themselves to the Void was definitely part of that decision, and another consideration was 'What if we get back to Valinor and Manwë *doesn't* release us from the Oath?' - the idea of a repeat rebellion against the Valar was extremely unappealing to them. So, yes, they refused to give up their claim, but not primarily out of pride - it was more fear at that point. Just as fear was a primary factor in Fëanor's actions during the rebellion.

 

[Faelivrin]

I don't really see how fear was more a factor for Feanor than overweening hubris. He was afraid of having his power and stuff taken, but that's the usual reaction when privileged people feel entitled to be superior. At its root, I call that pride and plain old selfishness.

Well, who wrote that letter? Certainly sounds like Celegorm and Curufin were behind it to me

Oh, probably it was mostly them LOL. But Maedhros totally let them and, uh, approved the message. Despite the whole "trying to unite all the Free Peoples" thing...

I mean, he could've written a much nicer letter, apologizing for the Kinslaying and his little brothers' behavior, and praising the valor of Beren and Luthien, and offering something valuable in exchange for the Silmaril.

 

[MithLuin]

Yes. Maedhros' leadership fails after that battle. They were all wounded, but we don't know how or how severely or what the power dynamics were after Maedhros' failure (the 'Union of Maedhros' had *his* name on it, even if Caranthir was the one who made a character judgement error). While I agree that Maedhros did not stop that letter from being sent, I have to imagine that he didn't exactly compose it, and why it got sent might be a bit more involved than the 'summary' style of the Silmarillion suggests. [There is no hint about what fallout, if any, there was between Maedhros and Celegorm/Curufin after Nargothrond.]



As for Fëanor, we do see his fear during the rebellion. He is trying to get the Noldor on the road as quickly as possible, because he is afraid he'll lose them if they stop to think, and he's afraid the Valar will intervene to put a stop to everything. His main motivation in escalating the situation in Alqualondë is...that he is in a terrible rush. If he weren't in such a hurry, that could have been resolved less violently. Does his pride play a role? Oh, definitely. No question. But what's driving him to act so rashly? That's...more fear than anything. Which he would never admit, of course.

 

[Faelivrin]

[There is no hint about what fallout, if any, there was between Maedhros and Celegorm/Curufin after Nargothrond.]

I wonder. There's a note that he was "dismayed" by the fall of Nargothrond, and they... kinda weren't. I imagine Maedhros was very unhappy about Finrod's death, and let them have it in private. And they probably just resented him all the more, especially since they were now stuck living with him, directly under his thumb, with no followers of their own.

So are you now envisioning that they sent that letter without even showing him the contents? (I mean the one to Thingol, before the Union of Maedhros)

As for Fëanor, we do see his fear during the rebellion. He is trying to get the Noldor on the road as quickly as possible, because he is afraid he'll lose them if they stop to think, and he's afraid the Valar will intervene to put a stop to everything. His main motivation in escalating the situation in Alqualondë is...that he is in a terrible rush. If he weren't in such a hurry, that could have been resolved less violently. Does his pride play a role? Oh, definitely. No question. But what's driving him to act so rashly? That's...more fear than anything. Which he would never admit, of course.

Ah, you don't mean his motive for rebelling in the first place, but his behavior after starting the rebellion, his fear the Valar will act or his followers will desert them. Yes, yes that is fear. I was talking about why he rebelled at all.

 

[Marielle]

Relistening to the session -- want to jot down an idea before I forget.

When the time comes to debate crossing the Helcaraxe, I would like to give Elenwe a prophetic line to Turgon, something like "a light shines upon our line. Whether it be you, or Idril, or a child not yet born, I cannot see; but the heavens themselves will shine the brighter for our crossing into Middle Earth."

This gives her an active role in the decision that kills her; gives her death a sense of increased loss, even thwarted fate; and creates an echo with Huor's death-speech to Turgon at the Unnumbered Tears. Also foreshadows Earendil, who's a Really Big Deal but could possibly be overshadowed by the other heroes who've been around a lot longer than him.