Session 3.13 - S3Ep8: The Burning of the Ships

I haven't ever gotten a message like that. But as far as I know, Dave and Corey both record the session. So...it should be fine?


(Oh, and the misspelling of Turgon on the slide was totally my fault; don't know why Corey took the heat for it.)
 
So... has any decision been made about how the Burning went down, who participated, who was asleep, and if Amrod died?
 
Yes!

As of Friday's session....

Amrod *definitely* dies in the shipburning. Amras knows something about his plans, but thinks he's been talked out of it. Fëanor burns the ships not knowing that Amrod is aboard. But when Amrod is discovered missing and Amras reveals what must've happened, Fëanor immediately blames the Oath - Amrod caused his own death by breaking his Oath.

Amras is a mess after this, so we will have to plan his future actions accordingly. Tolkien never really had the opportunity to plan the fallout from this little burning-your-own-son-alive event.

There was discussion of the various ways each piece of the story could come to light, but the gist of it is that the story from the Shibboleth is in.


Also, Argon is out. It was decided to flesh out characters from the published Silmarillion rather than add in ones who don't appear there, so any lines/story/angle we would have given to him during the Helcaraxë go to other characters. Our version of Fingolfin only has 2 sons, apparently. This is not a huge loss, obviously, but I wanted to share that here ASAP.
 
Excellent! Yeah, Feanor blaming the victim, totally in character.

So you are having them all be awake and Feanor burns the ships immediately after Maedhros talks to him? So... does Amras participate? o_O
It would be noticed if Feanor purposely gathered all his sons to help burn them and one wasn't found...

I had made some suggestions in... some thread a while back... about how the different brothers would react afterwards. But I forget where.

Yeah Argon isn't a huge loss.
 
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There are some logistical issues with making it work - we will have to sort out the details in the script discussion.

The idea is that no one *intentionally* kills Amrod, so there has to be a reveal to the ship-burners of what they have done. There were several suggestions - Amrod left behind a note that they find too late, his ship is near enough to shore that they can *see* him burning to death on it. Both of these were deemed...a bit too hokey. In the end, they are going to hear his screams (this is Lammoth, after all - they will echo spectacularly).

Chaos, with Amras looking for his twin (but not finding him) seems to be how we are handling the order to burn the ships while Amrod is absent. Obviously all of the sons cannot be gathered when Fëanor and Maedhros have their confrontation for this to work at all. And yes, an Amras who *participates* is going to be even more wrecked afterwards, and so....if we can make that work/happen, so much the better for Silmarillion tragedy purposes. Amras could be asleep/not available, so that he neither participates in nor protests the burning of the ships, but removing his agency in the scene would be a loss.

My main motivation for wanting to preserve the death of Amrod from the Shibboleth is not simply to amp up the grief and tragedy. To me, the real issue is that in the book, the horror of the kinslaying does not really set in until later, but the horror of the shipburning is practically visceral. It's wanton destruction, it's a tactically poor choice, it's loss and madness and WHY??? What is Fëanor remembered for when you read the book? Being really possessive of the shiny stuff he makes, and burning the Teleri ships for no (good) reason. On screen, the kinslaying should be heartbreaking and horrifying and gut-punching. There ought to be no problem with making the horror immediately apparent - it's a bloody battle and a lot of innocents die. But the shipburning? On film? It's just boats. Expecting the audience to take that scene as seriously as it should be taken is asking a lot of them. Enter Amrod, and a suitably tragic memory to attach to the ship-burning, and we're set.
 
At the same time, if they are awake, we want to show that the other four Sons of Feanor are willing to burn the ships... so if they're awake, let's have Maglor, Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin all participate while Amros runs around looking for Amrod (and nobody bothers to wait for him), and Maedhros looks on disapprovingly/sadly.

I don't really think Amros should participate. I want his anger at Feanor to be more... natural? If he suspects Amrod is aboard he wouldn't until he was sure it was safe, right? If you want him to participate, how are you going to get him to think Amrod is _not_ in danger?

But we can't have Amros already know _for certain_ Amrod is aboard, or he would have told Feanor at once. So there has to be a "Yes OK fine I (will participate / won't try to stop you*)... wait wait where is Amrod? Wait till I find him..." and nobody listens.

* You said Amros tries to talk Amrod out of it. What is his angle here? They are "alike in mood" so their motivations should be similar, but need not be identical... I had imagined Amros was also unhappy about abandoning Fingolfin and planning to join Amrod after a nap. If he tries to talk him out of it, why? To avoid breaking the Oath and the terrible consequences of that? (But they could help Fingolfin and then return to Drengist.) Because they shouldn't go behind Feanor's back? Because he has a bad feeling about this (foresight)? Or because he disagrees about helping Fingolfin? I don't feel like any Feanorian is wise enough to have foresight on their own behalf.

If they hear the screaming (good idea, by the way) then Feanor should say his piece about "faint-hearts and traitors" before Amrod dies, while egging on his sons to help burn the ships. Or... he uses that phrase when blaming Amrod for his own death.

EDIT: I found my first post about the Burning of the ships, and the reactions of the brothers afterwards: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/brothers.628/page-2#post-12945


As an aside... what do you think happened to Amrod's soul? He didn't go all the way back to Valinor, so he didn't break his Oath yet... but he might have been planning to. Is "I was maybe going to break my unbreakable Oath, but you killed me before I had a chance" enough to send his soul to the Everlasting Darkness" ?

Maybe one of the brothers should ask this in anguished tones afterwards. It's an opportunity to remind audiences of the blasphemous evil nature of the Oath.
 
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* You said Amros tries to talk Amrod out of it. What is his angle here? They are "alike in mood" so their motivations should be similar, but need not be identical... I had imagined Amros was also unhappy about abandoning Fingolfin and planning to join Amrod after a nap. If he tries to talk him out of it, why? To avoid breaking the Oath and the terrible consequences of that? (But they could help Fingolfin and then return to Drengist.) Because they shouldn't go behind Feanor's back? Because he has a bad feeling about this (foresight)? Or because he disagrees about helping Fingolfin? I don't feel like any Feanorian is wise enough to have foresight on their own behalf.


All good points. It seems as though we'll have to be very careful to have a nuanced difference of opinion between them. I also agree that foresight should not necessarily be involved.
 
We need for Amras to think he has convinced Amrod to delay/wait/not go through with a return trip without permission. When the announcement to burn the ships is made, Amras does not think his brother is in danger. It is only after he realizes that Amrod is missing and no one has seen him that he realizes what they've done.

I imagine we will have several conversations while they are aboard ships in the crossing. Fëanor can be on a ship with Curufin, Maedhros can be on a ship with Maglor, and Amrod and Amras can be on a ship together. (Maybe Celegorm and Caranthir each get their own ship.) Thus, all of the Fëanoreans will be making separate plans and be rather broadsided by the shipburning that Fëanor has planned. But that's just how I'm thinking at the moment - there are other ways to do this.

And yes, someone is going to have to bitterly declare that it's better Amrod died in flames now, rather than break the Oath and condemn himself to the darkness of the Void. I think that all of the brothers except for Amras will appear to move on from this and accept it. (Appear only; it's obviously not okay to burn your brother alive by accident, and this family is particularly close-knit.) Amras...isn't going to keep up appearances. He *is* going to slaughter a lot of orcs...and be much less Team 'Fight Morgoth' than he was before. We'll find a way to get him on Amon Ereb while the rest of his brothers are MUCH further north.
 
Feanor shows no remorse, clearly.

The brothers should mourn, though. Probably none of them (well, at least probably not the majority) are heartless enough not to at least mourn their brother somewhat, even if they keep it private or muted because Feanor is ... Feanor.

The 4 who participated in burning the ships are responsible for helping kill their own brother. The script should show some subtle differences of reactions. Some are too proud to admit at all they did wrong -- I think at least one should outwardly agree with Feanor's tack, or at least avoid showing any disagreement even in attitude, and keep mourning to a minimum. At least one (Maglor) should openly show remorse. One of them should be the one to say Amrod was better off dead before he broke the Oath.

Amros needs to be pissed at his father and openly call him out for being insane. That line in the Shibboleth can't be used exactly since (I'm assuming) the story about the twins' names wasn't included. But "Fell and fey are you become." (possibly substituting less obscure/more recognizeable words for "batshit criminal insanity"). If he was persuaded to help burn the ships, this could shade into being pissed off at his father for "making" him do it. But he should still be pissed, either way.

Maedhros pointedly doesn't take part. Should his reaction focus on mourning, or on open anger at Feanor or his brothers? He could very well say "I told you so" ... if he has the guts to stand up to Feanor the way Amros did. He should be angry, even if he manages to bottle it up when Feanor is listening.

How does Celebrimbor react? Has he had any scenes yet? If not this could be a chance to introduce something of his personality.


About the ships: I think there should be enough for Feanor and each brother (except the twins) to have their own ship. One of the few (the only?) population figures we get is a force of thousands (I think 10,000 -- can anyone confirm?) Gondolindrim warriors at the 5th battle. Not counting women, children, and male healers. If you consider that 1/3 to 1/2 of those were probably Sindar, and a significant fraction were born in Middle-earth after the Exile, that's still probably at least 2000-3000 Noldor in Turgon's following alone. The Feanorians have fewer people overall, but I expect at least a thousand Elves per Feanorian prince (not incl. Celebrimbor). That's likely more than one ship each.

Now, I see the idea of giving them conversation scenes. One option is to move those to while they embark and disembark. If not, I'm fine pairing them up so they can talk en route. I do still think there should be more ships than that, though.
 
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Oh, I agree on the idea of 'more ships' - excuses for conversation weren't meant to limit the size of the fleet.
 
Feanor shows no remorse, clearly.

The brothers should mourn, though. Probably none of them (well, at least probably not the majority) are heartless enough not to at least mourn their brother somewhat, even if they keep it private or muted because Feanor is ... Feanor.

The 4 who participated in burning the ships are responsible for helping kill their own brother. The script should show some subtle differences of reactions. Some are too proud to admit at all they did wrong -- I think at least one should outwardly agree with Feanor's tack, or at least avoid showing any disagreement even in attitude, and keep mourning to a minimum. At least one (Maglor) should openly show remorse. One of them should be the one to say Amrod was better off dead before he broke the Oath.

Amros needs to be pissed at his father and openly call him out for being insane. That line in the Shibboleth can't be used exactly since (I'm assuming) the story about the twins' names wasn't included. But "Fell and fey are you become." (possibly substituting less obscure/more recognizeable words for batshit criminal insanity). If he was persuaded to help burn the ships, this could shade into being pissed off at his father for "making" him do it. But he should still be pissed, either way.

Maedhros pointedly doesn't take part. Should his reaction focus on mourning, or on open anger at Feanor or his brothers? He could very well say "I told you so" ... if he has the guts to stand up to Feanor the way Amros did. He should be angry, even if he manages to bottle it up when Feanor is listening.

How does Celebrimbor react? Has he had any scenes yet? If not this could be a chance to introduce something of his personality.

Faelivrin, I have to tell you that having discussions like this makes outlining scripts much, much easier, so I thank you for investing in this. I hope that you are able to find time to join us for those now and again. It isn't mid-workday, like the podcast recordings.

I think that Maedhros is both in mourning and angry. But I don't think he's hotheaded enough to rail upon Feanor publicly. He does question the order to burn the ships, and he does abstain from that, but he doesn't actively resist it. He's a bit too much of a pragmatist to try and stage a coup at this point.

And I'm all for not dumbing down "Fell and fey are you become." Even if people don't understand the exact words, the meaning will be crystal clear.
 
Faelivrin, I have to tell you that having discussions like this makes outlining scripts much, much easier, so I thank you for investing in this. I hope that you are able to find time to join us for those now and again. It isn't mid-workday, like the podcast recordings.
Well thank you, that's nice of you to say! I'm not sure if I ought to catch up on listening to Season 2 and 3 podcasts first... if you want to talk about it could you please PM me the times and days and link the platform? At the very least I want to also read the scripts and comment on all the Season 3 scripts... and even Season 2 if they aren't Set In Stone. But I am so far from caught up.

I think that Maedhros is both in mourning and angry. But I don't think he's hotheaded enough to rail upon Feanor publicly. He does question the order to burn the ships, and he does abstain from that, but he doesn't actively resist it. He's a bit too much of a pragmatist to try and stage a coup at this point.
Well, a verbal confrontation isn't necessarily a coup, but I see your point.

So does he take it out on his brothers then, or bottle it all up for the sake of "Team 'Fight Morgoth'" ? This is the point where the brothers start to ... drift apart a bit and stop acting in lockstep. It isn't necessarily just Amros who decides he's pissed at his brethren. Maedhros is going to be unhappy about abandoning Fingolfin, even if nobody else in the family (who's still alive...) cares. He isn't guilty this time, so he's free to be angry at his brothers. And he'll have more ample reason to be pissed at them later when they decide not to try to rescue him from Hell. Even if they couldn't be bothered, Fingon could have saved him decades earlier if even one ship had been spared the flames... but no.

So this scene and the aftermath are an opportunity to show fissures starting.... subtly, with festering resentment, or with open recriminations. With Maedhros I'm kind of leaning now towards outwardly being "Team Fight Morgoth" but with some simmering resentment that can dramatically come out next season.


By the way, is the actor you picked for Feanor good at malevolent lunatic laughter? This scene shouldn't just be tragic, it should be very disturbing. The creep factor should start with Feanor laughing like a deranged maniac in Maedhros' face.
 
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Fëanor is played by Richard Armitage in this adaptation. (With the understanding that fantasy casting is...just that.)

And yes, this is where Maedhros starts to split from his brothers - we have to see *why* he goes to meet Morgoth's emissary alone, and why they don't try to rescue him. While the latter can be explained by constraints of the Oath and Maglor's weak leadership, the former is very telling of...something.
 
As an aside... what do you think happened to Amrod's soul? He didn't go all the way back to Valinor, so he didn't break his Oath yet... but he might have been planning to. Is "I was maybe going to break my unbreakable Oath, but you killed me before I had a chance" enough to send his soul to the Everlasting Darkness" ?

Maybe one of the brothers should ask this in anguished tones afterwards. It's an opportunity to remind audiences of the blasphemous evil nature of the Oath.
My understanding is that Fëanor ends up a permanent inhabitant of the Halls of Mandos: I have a dim memory of a note saying that he's the only one who would never be released. Even Finwë, who is there on a more-or-less voluntary basis, would get out before his oldest son.

So I think Amrod would have a good chance of spending quality time with his brothers and the other miscreants who are there for the long haul. I don't recall JRRT ever saying that any of the brothers were actually condemned to the Outer Darkness, regardless of what they might have claimed in the Oath. I sit ready to be corrected, obviously :D
 
Feanor isn't the only elf imprisoned in Mandos until the End of Time, but the only one specifically named (besides Finwe). But no, it isn't a common punishment (not a punishment at all for Finwe). Normally they have to be utterly, completely unrepentant evildoers. I mostly doubt any of Feanor's sons ended up in the Void, but whether any were let out of Mandos before the End... I think in their case they first have to be freed from the Oath, by Eru himself. I wouldn't hold my breath for Curufin, Celegorm, or Caranthir. Let alone Eol, if he didn't just decide to linger as a ghost out of general spite. Which is a thing Elves can do... but only the total morons, if Morgoth and Sauron are running around practicing necromancy. Not even Feanor was that dumb.

Fëanor is played by Richard Armitage in this adaptation. (With the understanding that fantasy casting is...just that.)
So can Armitage laugh like a deranged murderous maniac who's about to accidentally murder his son?

And yes, this is where Maedhros starts to split from his brothers - we have to see *why* he goes to meet Morgoth's emissary alone, and why they don't try to rescue him. While the latter can be explained by constraints of the Oath and Maglor's weak leadership, the former is very telling of...something.
Well... honestly, there wasn't much reason to think rescue was possible. Let alone that Morgoth would actually honor any deal to release him. Nobody tried to rescue Hurin, or Gwindor, or Celebrimbor, or Earnur, or Thrain... not even Frodo and Sam, until after the Ring melted. Because normally that's deemed impossible. Fingon and Luthien+Huan are the only people who ever succeed, and both times it's a legitimate miracle. It's still very understandable that Maedhros would feel abandoned and angry. But I think he would let it go at some point.
 
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That's my point - you can justify the lack of rescue attempt.

What is more difficult to justify is why Maedhros was out there alone (-ish) getting captured in the first place. Did his brothers disagree with his decision to meet with Morgoth's emissary? Did *he* think it was too dangerous and order them to stay behind? What happened there? (Ie, we have a story to tell...) There's a reason we've put Sauron (not Gothmog) in charge of this part of the story - there's some interesting trickery going on.



As for the fate of the Fëanorean's souls in Mandos...I may have written 15 chapters of fanfic on that topic at one point ;). Suffice it to say that Tolkien gives no indication that *any* elf is shoved out into the Void - only Morgoth has that fate. So, yeah, they're probably all in Mandos, and they're probably there for the long haul...though perhaps not all until the end of time. [Well, no one really knows whatever happened to Maglor, of course - he almost surely faded at some point, but...did he? Did he manage to linger indefinitely?] Start planning your post-First Age Maglor cameos now.....
 
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Well, Feanor did warn them never to treat with Morgoth. I doubt any of them cared that double-crossing even him is wrong, but some have got to realize it's foolish.

The post-LotR Lay of Leithian suggests Maglor drowned himself. But otherwise, he faded. Every elf in Middle-earth will fade. Eventually... like maybe by 1000 AD or so. In the meantime apparently nobody wants to talk to him.

But I actually think if the Valar are willing to reincarnate an elf, they won't have to wait longer than Melkor was chained: 300 Valian years. (Unless Eru has to intervene and takes longer.) On the other hand, eventually they stop giving second chances to repent.

I don’t know about that, but I can imagine him with a more bitter laugh.
I imagine something shrill, actually. Don't know if Armitage can be shrill. And...it has to be an evil, contemptuous laugh.
 
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Most of these are *not* clips of him acting, but simply him laughing in interviews and such. So, you know...just picture it more evil/maniacal?

 
I have every confidence that Armitage can do Fey Feanor -- though I wonder if shrill would work on-screen. "Out Heroding Herod" rarely comes across as anything other than hokey in film. But we don't actually have to direct anything, thank goodness.

I'm a bit behind, am just now listening to the last session on Twitch, but I have some comments/ideas I'd like to throw in, if y'all will indulge me.

1) Could Feanor suspect that Fingolfin is going to behave treacherously *as the agent of the Valar*? He could say something like "Manwe's croaker of doom revealed more than he meant in his speech" to Curufin, suggesting that the prediction of betrayal was a hint that they've set up Fingolfin to betray him while maintaining deniability -- "it was your own actions, man!"

2) Maybe this will come up later in the session, but the destruction of the Ships has to hurt not just for the betrayal of Fingolfin and his people and the death of Amrod, but because it's wanton destruction of masterworks of craft, nothing less than the Silmarils of the Teleri. Feanor is needlessly and cruelly inflicting a worse wrong upon the Teleri than Morgoth has upon him -- he, at least, can take comfort that his masterworks still exist, and someday hope to recover them. Maybe Maedros' speech against burning the Ships, when he sees that convincing his father not to abandon the others won't work, turns to this, trying at the very least to get him to leave the Ships unharmed upon the shore?
 
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