Session 4-22: Final Creative Content - Dragons!

Well...it depends how long after the battle he has the vision, how long after the vision he starts building, and how long before the season finale it's completed....

But we've got 200 years to work with, and Tolkien only used 64 to accomplish this, so.
Also, we’ll have to change when Aredhel leaves Gondolin, since chapter 16 of The Silmarillion says that it’s 200 years since Gondolin was founded when Aredhel goes to Turgon and requests leave from Gondolin. If we push this forward in time, Maeglin’s age will also be affected.
 
Celeborn's sister needs a name. We should collect our suggestions for that and deal with it in this session.
 
Haerangil had also suggested using Evranin or Nielthi. I'll pass along all three suggestions, and any others people have.
 
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Is there a way to change this point without changing the event order proscribed by the hosts at the beginning of this season?
On post 16: Wanting to introduce the concept of yen, @MithLuin suggests that the Elves would be using a base 12 number system, with 144 years being a centennial. The fourth season finale (the appearance of Glaurung) takes place in 260 FA, with the only real opportunities to introduce yen would be in the year 144 or Turgon want to complete Gondolin in 144 years. Tolkien puts 12 years between Turgon’s dream and when he begins constructing Gondolin. Since the dream would be in approx. F.A. 62, Turgon would begin construction in F.A. 74, and if we go by yen, Gondolin would be completed in F.A. 218.

The problem I have is in the dates regarding Aredhel. The Silmarillion states that she leaves Gondolin 200 years after it is completed, originally in 316 F.A. Altered timeline would have her doing this in 418. Maeglin is born in 310 in original, would be 422 in new timeline. He has to be at least 50 by the time of Aredhel’s return to Gondolin, and would at this point reach Gondolin in the same year as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, not enough time for him to be ingratiated into the Gondolodrim and gain the respect of Turgon.

Or does Aredhel not have to leave Gondolin 200 years after its completion and I’m just crazy?
 
On post 16: Wanting to introduce the concept of yen, @MithLuin suggests that the Elves would be using a base 12 number system, with 144 years being a centennial. The fourth season finale (the appearance of Glaurung) takes place in 260 FA, with the only real opportunities to introduce yen would be in the year 144 or Turgon want to complete Gondolin in 144 years. Tolkien puts 12 years between Turgon’s dream and when he begins constructing Gondolin. Since the dream would be in approx. F.A. 62, Turgon would begin construction in F.A. 74, and if we go by yen, Gondolin would be completed in F.A. 218.

The problem I have is in the dates regarding Aredhel. The Silmarillion states that she leaves Gondolin 200 years after it is completed, originally in 316 F.A. Altered timeline would have her doing this in 418. Maeglin is born in 310 in original, would be 422 in new timeline. He has to be at least 50 by the time of Aredhel’s return to Gondolin, and would at this point reach Gondolin in the same year as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, not enough time for him to be ingratiated into the Gondolodrim and gain the respect of Turgon.

Or does Aredhel not have to leave Gondolin 200 years after its completion and I’m just crazy?
I will have to check timelines to give a serious response to this. However, The issue itself is an illustration to why I think that being detailed about the years is problematic. If we don't have our Elves talk about what year it is and how long ago this and that happened, we won't really have to worry about this kind of thing. As soon as we get into more details, we will get more and more of this kind of problem.
 
On post 16: Wanting to introduce the concept of yen, @MithLuin suggests that the Elves would be using a base 12 number system, with 144 years being a centennial. The fourth season finale (the appearance of Glaurung) takes place in 260 FA, with the only real opportunities to introduce yen would be in the year 144 or Turgon want to complete Gondolin in 144 years. Tolkien puts 12 years between Turgon’s dream and when he begins constructing Gondolin. Since the dream would be in approx. F.A. 62, Turgon would begin construction in F.A. 74, and if we go by yen, Gondolin would be completed in F.A. 218.

The problem I have is in the dates regarding Aredhel. The Silmarillion states that she leaves Gondolin 200 years after it is completed, originally in 316 F.A. Altered timeline would have her doing this in 418. Maeglin is born in 310 in original, would be 422 in new timeline. He has to be at least 50 by the time of Aredhel’s return to Gondolin, and would at this point reach Gondolin in the same year as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, not enough time for him to be ingratiated into the Gondolodrim and gain the respect of Turgon.

Or does Aredhel not have to leave Gondolin 200 years after its completion and I’m just crazy?

So, my question is, what do we do about this without changing the proscripted timeline for this season. We're on Episode 11, so it is a bit difficult to go back now.
 
So, my question is, what do we do about this without changing the proscripted timeline for this season. We're on Episode 11, so it is a bit difficult to go back now.
We either don’t have Turgon take 144 years to build Gondolin, or have Aredhel not leave until 200 years after Gondolin’s completion.
 
We either don’t have Turgon take 144 years to build Gondolin, or have Aredhel not leave until 200 years after Gondolin’s completion.

Right, so we just don't have dates on the screen, or anyone calling out how much time has passed and we are good, right?
 
It does seem easier, yes. But there are issues with it, and we just have to deal with those issues as they come up. Because even if we avoid being explicit about a timeline, our storytelling will be implicit. If we change the flow of time or have timeskips in an episode...we do have to indicate that in some way.

The reality is that we are placing Turgon's dream from Ulmo after the Dagor Aglareb, so it's already 10 years later than Tolkien placed it. So, even if Gondolin is constructed in the exact same amount of time, we're going to be pushing the years back a bit. Which means, yes, it's going to be less than 200 years later when Aredhel leaves.

Which is...fine. What we wanted to avoid was to have Gondolin *just* built and Aredhel already going 'I'm bored!' and wanting to leave. Separating those events into not only different episodes but different seasons creates a feeling of time that flashing '200 years later' up on the screen does not. So, okay, what if it were 150 years later? Would Aredhel's restlessness feel any more fake? I don't think that's the issue.

Turgon will be moving his people into the newly-constructed Gondolin in Episode 12 or 13 of this season. We can't have it happen any earlier. That's...done. For thematic reasons, we need to establish Turgon in Gondolin in all his isolated glory as part of the Season Finale. Episode 13, the escape of Glaurung, takes place in FA 260. Therefore...we are implying a late construction of Gondolin here.

We don't have to introduce the explicit time unit of 'yen' - that might not be helpful, and better saved for next season. But we do have to indicate that much time has passed in peace with no attacks from Morgoth. Angband has been quiet for not just a little while, not just a few years, but for *two centuries.* We need that to be remarked upon in some way that clues the audience in. Otherwise - it's going to look like the elves built cities overnight, or something is just going to feel weird/out of place with the last couple of episodes in the season. We can have Celeborn's sister remark on how long it's been since she last saw Celeborn at his wedding, if we want to. I'm not really concerned with how or when the passing of time is brought up, I just feel that keeping it implicit while including a 200 year timeskip is a likely source of confusion that we might need to address more explicitly.

We've seen timeskips throughout the season. Years are passing, different episodes can take place in different seasons, etc. I'm not worried about the audience not noticing that Idril grew up (for instance) or thinking it magic rather than the more obvious 'time passed.' I think that, in general, an implicit timeline is fine, and therefore the amount of time passing is however much time seems to pass in various episodes. No one in the audience knows that the Mereth Aderthad is in year 20 or that the battle is year 60. Okay, we can make that work and live with it.

But if the season finale simply feels like '10 years later'....I feel we might be losing some of the story, and should probably be careful to clue the audience in. And, I recognize that insisting that Glaurung escape in FA 260 is part of the issue here, but we do need to give him time to grow. We don't want to imply that Morgoth can grow dragons super quickly, either.

Because, it's not just that time is passing. This is Fingolfin's Leaguer in effect. This is the Siege of Angband. This is a 400 year long peace interrupted only by Glaurung's escape. And sure, we all know that's not going to last. We know we're moving inexorably onward to the Battle of Sudden Flame and that this peace is temporary. The narrator of the Silmarillion knew that too, and took pains to point out how this plan wasn't going to work as soon as it was introduced.

But, for the elves living through it? It's 400 years of peace. That is an accomplishment and it does mean something. It doesn't mean what Fingolfin thinks it means (lasting peace and safety), but we have to justify Fingolfin's viewpoint, too. We've gotta lull the audience into not expecting what's coming (at least not entirely).

So, a better question than 'how do we show time passing?' might be 'how do we depict the peace accomplished by the Siege of Angband?'
 
It does seem easier, yes. But there are issues with it, and we just have to deal with those issues as they come up. Because even if we avoid being explicit about a timeline, our storytelling will be implicit. If we change the flow of time or have timeskips in an episode...we do have to indicate that in some way.

The reality is that we are placing Turgon's dream from Ulmo after the Dagor Aglareb, so it's already 10 years later than Tolkien placed it. So, even if Gondolin is constructed in the exact same amount of time, we're going to be pushing the years back a bit. Which means, yes, it's going to be less than 200 years later when Aredhel leaves.

Which is...fine. What we wanted to avoid was to have Gondolin *just* built and Aredhel already going 'I'm bored!' and wanting to leave. Separating those events into not only different episodes but different seasons creates a feeling of time that flashing '200 years later' up on the screen does not. So, okay, what if it were 150 years later? Would Aredhel's restlessness feel any more fake? I don't think that's the issue.

Turgon will be moving his people into the newly-constructed Gondolin in Episode 12 or 13 of this season. We can't have it happen any earlier. That's...done. For thematic reasons, we need to establish Turgon in Gondolin in all his isolated glory as part of the Season Finale. Episode 13, the escape of Glaurung, takes place in FA 260. Therefore...we are implying a late construction of Gondolin here.

We don't have to introduce the explicit time unit of 'yen' - that might not be helpful, and better saved for next season. But we do have to indicate that much time has passed in peace with no attacks from Morgoth. Angband has been quiet for not just a little while, not just a few years, but for *two centuries.* We need that to be remarked upon in some way that clues the audience in. Otherwise - it's going to look like the elves built cities overnight, or something is just going to feel weird/out of place with the last couple of episodes in the season. We can have Celeborn's sister remark on how long it's been since she last saw Celeborn at his wedding, if we want to. I'm not really concerned with how or when the passing of time is brought up, I just feel that keeping it implicit while including a 200 year timeskip is a likely source of confusion that we might need to address more explicitly.

We've seen timeskips throughout the season. Years are passing, different episodes can take place in different seasons, etc. I'm not worried about the audience not noticing that Idril grew up (for instance) or thinking it magic rather than the more obvious 'time passed.' I think that, in general, an implicit timeline is fine, and therefore the amount of time passing is however much time seems to pass in various episodes. No one in the audience knows that the Mereth Aderthad is in year 20 or that the battle is year 60. Okay, we can make that work and live with it.

But if the season finale simply feels like '10 years later'....I feel we might be losing some of the story, and should probably be careful to clue the audience in. And, I recognize that insisting that Glaurung escape in FA 260 is part of the issue here, but we do need to give him time to grow. We don't want to imply that Morgoth can grow dragons super quickly, either.

Because, it's not just that time is passing. This is Fingolfin's Leaguer in effect. This is the Siege of Angband. This is a 400 year long peace interrupted only by Glaurung's escape. And sure, we all know that's not going to last. We know we're moving inexorably onward to the Battle of Sudden Flame and that this peace is temporary. The narrator of the Silmarillion knew that too, and took pains to point out how this plan wasn't going to work as soon as it was introduced.

But, for the elves living through it? It's 400 years of peace. That is an accomplishment and it does mean something. It doesn't mean what Fingolfin thinks it means (lasting peace and safety), but we have to justify Fingolfin's viewpoint, too. We've gotta lull the audience into not expecting what's coming (at least not entirely).

So, a better question than 'how do we show time passing?' might be 'how do we depict the peace accomplished by the Siege of Angband?'
So we’re making the First Age longer?
 
I don't think that Aredhel leaving 50 years earlier will matter at all, especially if we don't focus on how many years it has been. We could focus on the situation that's making her restless (and I think we should).
The Siege of Angband, posing the same problem, could have a similar solution. We do not say "it's been 84 years" or whatever, unless there's a really good reason. I would accept a scene with a senior loremaster and a young(er) Pengolodh discussing the passing of time (in season five) - but only if it's part of a story. This season, we could explore the effects of the Siege. Do Elves and Dwarves move around more freely? Has there been any significant cultural or technological developments? Do we see the grass of Ard-galen grow high and adorned with flowers - clover, poppy, bluebell?
 
Haerangil had also suggested using Evranin or Nielthi. I'll pass along all three suggestions, and any others people have.
Defenitely a minor issue but: Maybe we should also bring up casting for Roac, since he's now officially in our script. We have a thread, but we haven't talked about him in a session, right? Or did we? (I missed the frame casting discussion.) A voice actor is required, so if the execs could say something about his voice. Creaky beak-speak or not?
 
Defenitely a minor issue but: Maybe we should also bring up casting for Roac, since he's now officially in our script. We have a thread, but we haven't talked about him in a session, right? Or did we? (I missed the frame casting discussion.) A voice actor is required, so if the execs could say something about his voice. Creaky beak-speak or not?
We talked about casting him, but not in a particular manner or vocal style. The focus was on characters like Thranduil and Legolas.
 
Could we decide on a name for Bard's wife and names for Annael's wife and son?

Also, could we figure out names for Maglor's wife and Caranthir's wife and what we want their roles to be? If Maglor's wife remained in Valinor, I think that would make Curufin's wife, Diriel, the besain of the Feanorian camp, which would give her a larger role in the episodes before she is captured. If Caranthir's wife came to Middle-earth with him, that role could pass to her after Diriel's capture.
 
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