Session 4-30: Final Script Review

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Session 4-30 will be held on Thursday December 12th at 10 PM Eastern Time. We will be reviewing Episodes 12 and 13 scripts. We will begin with a discussion of why Galadriel wants to marry Celeborn.

Any comments on the current scripts for Episodes 12 and 13 should be made over the weekend, if you have the chance!

Also, time permitting, we'd like to read aloud a scene from one of the scripts from this season. Does anyone have any suggestions as to which scene they would like to hear?

And a reminder that voting for Casting for Season 4 is now open - head on over to the Casting forum and follow Haakon's link there to cast your vote. Voting will remain open until Christmas.
 
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MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Another suggestion might be the council of the Noldor from Episode 3. This scene (beginning on p. 18 of the script) has the advantage of containing several direct quotes from the Silmarillion - Thingol's greeting to the Noldor delivered by Angrod, Maedhros' response that 'a king is he that can hold his own,' and Caranthir's angry words...and interspersed with these quotes are dialogue forming the opinions of the other elves at that council and giving context to them. A disadvantage of this scene is that it has many voices, so it might be confusing to follow along with. I do kinda like that it includes so many 'favorite' characters - my fave Maedhros, Rhiannon's Angrod, and Trish Lambert's Aredhel :) (though alas, Aredhel does not speak).
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Another suggestion might be the council of the Noldor from Episode 3. This scene (beginning on p. 18 of the script) has the advantage of containing several direct quotes from the Silmarillion - Thingol's greeting to the Noldor delivered by Angrod, Maedhros' response that 'a king is he that can hold his own,' and Caranthir's angry words...and interspersed with these quotes are dialogue forming the opinions of the other elves at that council and giving context to them. A disadvantage of this scene is that it has many voices, so it might be confusing to follow along with. I do kinda like that it includes so many 'favorite' characters - my fave Maedhros, Rhiannon's Angrod, and Trish Lambert's Aredhel :) (though alas, Aredhel does not speak).
Actually, Aredhel does have one line in this scene at the bottom of page 20.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Oh, fair. I guess I meant, this is a scene that definitely showcases Angrod and Maedhros, whereas Aredhel is more incidentally there. Aredhel has a good scene earlier in that episode, with Celegorm, but that scene lacks the Silmarillion quotes I liked ;). Aredhel has plenty of scenes in Episode 12 as well, so maybe I'll see if I like one of those for a 'read aloud' option.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Oh, fair. I guess I meant, this is a scene that definitely showcases Angrod and Maedhros, whereas Aredhel is more incidentally there. Aredhel has a good scene earlier in that episode, with Celegorm, but that scene lacks the Silmarillion quotes I liked ;). Aredhel has plenty of scenes in Episode 12 as well, so maybe I'll see if I like one of those for a 'read aloud' option.
Aredhel's scene with Celegorm does actually have some Silmarillion quotes in it. A lot of what Celegorm says about the map is taken straight from "Of Beleriand and Its Realms."
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I managed to take more detailed notes this time. Bold indicates changes I need to make to the scripts.

Silmfilm Session 4-30

Episode 11
  • Why does Galadriel settle for Celeborn?
    • they love each other
    • Celeborn was there for Galadriel when she needed him
      • he demonstrated his loyalty by keeping her secret
    • Celeborn is not a boring character; he has a storyline
    • Celeborn is humble but this does not make him a pushover
      • This helps balance Galadriel's self-aggrandizing tendencies
    • Galadriel has not given up her ambition to rule a realm; she just is now okay with sharing that realm with a partner
      • She has seen how Doriath functions with Thingol and Melian working together
      • Galadriel is not looking for someone like Thingol in Celeborn
      • Actually, Celeborn is more of a parallel to Melian and Galadriel is more of a parallel to Thingol
        • Celeborn is a wise advisor
      • Celeborn and Galadriel are more equal than Thingol and Melian
      • In Lothlorien, Celeborn could be the one who handles day-to-day matters and Galadriel is in charge of other things, i.e., being a ringbearer, opposing Sauron
    • Galadriel respects Celeborn
      • She is not just marrying him as thanks for helping her through a difficult time
    • Galadriel and Celeborn will work as a team from here on
  • For the script, Galadriel should have a conversation with Finrod in which these themes come out
    • Finrod should see that Celeborn has been good for Galadriel and ask Galadriel about her plans and visions for the future to understand how she has changed from the overly ambitious Galadriel at the beginning of the season
Episode 12
  • Petty-dwarves storyline
    • The Petty-dwarves do not just show up out of nowhere; they were alluded to in Episode 2 in Norn;s conversation with Mablung upon perceiving how dangerously ambitious Galadriel was
    • This storyline was pushed pretty late in the season, which means there was not a lot of room to develop the Petty-dwarves as characters or explore in greater detail how Dwarf society views them
      • However, there is not much more to tell about the Petty-dwarves, and it might be good for them to be pretty much forgotten until they show up again with Turin
    • Norn started out as an ambassador but has turned into a bigoted old man
      • His bigotry is not racism; it is not based on physical characteristics but rather the criminal history of the Petty-dwarves and projecting that onto all the Petty-dwarves, even children and innocent family members
      • In real life, admirable people can still be bigoted, so it is important that portrayals of bigotry don't just mane the bigoted character absolutely evil
      • Norn unapologetically hates the Petty-dwarves, but the episode makes it clear that this is not okay
    • Finrod's ignorance of the Petty-dwarves means Nargothrond benefits from something he doesn't know about
      • This is applicable to uncomfortable history in the real world
      • This is open-ended; Finrod could (although he probably won't) find out about the Petty-dwarves
      • The Petty-dwarves still have stakes in Nargothrond, particularly since there were Petty-dwarves buried there
    • Mablung's awkward silence demonstrates how difficult it is to stand up to bigotry
      • Often, in real life, there isn't really a chance to do something about bigotry that one encounters; either it happens too fast or it isn't the right situation to call someone out
      • Criticisms of characters who do not stand up to bigotry often assume that the situation is black and white, which it is not
    • There are no complete villains in this episode
      • Norn is the most villainous, but his story about his brother's murder explains where his feelings towards the Petty-dwarves come from
    • Mim in this episode is not the same Mim Turin meets; the Mims are imitating the tradition of Dwarven kings like Durin being reborn and taking the same name
    • The script needs to make it more clear that the Petty-dwarves are unaware of the building of Nargothrond and hope to just hide deeper in the caves and wait for Norn and Mablung to leave; otherwise, it seems strange that they do not fight
      • The Petty-dwarves' nonviolent reaction makes them seem even more like victims when Norn forces them out
  • Gondolin storyline
    • Elves other than Turgon could be a little skeptical when Turgon says his dreams came from Ulmo
      • Ulmo hasn't really been the friend of the Noldor, and they don't have a very good reason to assume he specifically would take an interest in them
      • Turgon, however, is demonstrating his faith and foresightedness when he recognizes the dream was sent by Ulmo and chooses to act upon it
    • Turgon should be the focus of the storyline
      • Ulmo is not forcing Turgon to do anything
        • He gives warnings and guidance and suggestions
      • Ulmo does not help Turgon until Turgon does something to initiate
      • It is ultimately Turgon's decision, not Ulmo's, to build Gondolin and Turgon, not Ulmo, whom the Gondolindrim decide to follow
      • Turgon should be protrayed as a visionary
    • In the script, more people should raise objections about Gondolin and these should be countered
      • Ulmo is asking Turgon to do something completely countercultural
        • to many, especially the Feanorians, it seems like desertion
        • Fingolfin and Fingon have faith in Turgon personally
          • Fingon can point out that, when the Valar do intercede, they do something blatantly obvious, like sending a giant eagle, rather than working indirectly through dreams
          • Fingon's faith in Turgon will ultimately overcome his doubts
        • Turgon's followers could also bring up more objections but eventually be convinced
    • As Aredhel travels around, she encounters objections to Gondolin, which she counters and convinces herself to go in the process
      • The strongest objection comes from Curufin but is countered by Amras
      • Aredhel's doubts should be overcome in this episode but set up her later doubts that will cause her to leave
    • Aredhel has a deep and substantive friendship with the Sons of Feanor
      • Her decision to visit them when she leaves Gondolin will not seem like a whim
    • Aredhel has gone from being a comic relief character who gets lost all the time to a real character
Episode 13
  • It seems odd that Glaurung, the primary antagonist of the finale is introduced in the finale
    • This episode is a culmination of season-long themes and foreshadowing of what is to come
    • Glaurung demonstrates that Morgoth is working on new plans
    • The antagonist is the Doom of Mandos
      • The episode is about the conflicts and actual or perceived betrayal between the Noldor and Sindar, and the houses of the Noldor
  • Celegorm is present to demonstrate the tension between Fingolfin's people and the Feanorians and keep the focus on reconciliation
  • Some of Glaurung's actions suggest that he is an animal and not very intelligent
    • He is young at this point
    • His actions now should not be inconsistent with what he does later
    • Take out Glaurung stopping to eat a horse during the fight and have him assess the situation before running into the canyon
      • Glaurung's overconfidence should be what causes him to fall for the trap
  • The forging of the Dragon-helm takes place in the montage at the end of this episode rather than in Season 5 so there does not need to be a full storyline devoted to the Dragon-helm
  • The finding of Men also happens in the montage at the end of this episode
    • Having this moment pass too quickly could interfere with the mythic significance of it
    • The first episode of Season 5 can go back in time a little and show this encounter from the Men's perspective, which will introduce the human perspective from which some events in the Silmarillion will now be seen
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Question about Aredhel: if Fingolfin knows Aredhel is going with Turgon, would he give Turgon a betrothal ring for Aredhel?
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
I doubt it. Aredhel is not in a relationship with anyone and has no plans to marry anytime soon. Presumably if she were to change her mind, she could figure out how to get a ring, and Turgon could stand in as their father at her wedding.

Obviously, we know that Aredhel will be getting married in Season 5, so I can understand the impulse to want to telegraph that. But I don't think Fingolfin has any reason to preemptively grant his blessing for this hypothetical union.

It might make sense for Fingolfin to send a message to Turgon to look after all of his people and especially his sister, though.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I doubt it. Aredhel is not in a relationship with anyone and has no plans to marry anytime soon. Presumably if she were to change her mind, she could figure out how to get a ring, and Turgon could stand in as their father at her wedding.

Obviously, we know that Aredhel will be getting married in Season 5, so I can understand the impulse to want to telegraph that. But I don't think Fingolfin has any reason to preemptively grant his blessing for this hypothetical union.

It might make sense for Fingolfin to send a message to Turgon to look after all of his people and especially his sister, though.
Well, in the sense that Fingolfin leaves consent for Aredhel’s marriage to Turgon?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Well, in the sense that Fingolfin leaves consent for Aredhel’s marriage to Turgon?
There is a bit of an issue here in that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with Fingolfin saying, "Hey, the important thing is that if you find a man, there is another man to give you permission to go ahead with that."
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
There is a bit of an issue here in that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with Fingolfin saying, "Hey, the important thing is that if you find a man, there is another man to give you permission to go ahead with that."
But who would Aredhel go to for permission instead of Fingolfin if the idea is that they’re leaving and not going to see each other again?
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I’m not sure I follow this. I think my feeling is that Aredhel is much freer. I think no one assumes they decide such things for her. As for a formal ‘giving away’, the future is uncertain, and if the circumstances places her in a situation in which a betrothal should happen, so be it. And if a person is needed to give her away (not sure it’s necessary), such a person will present himself/herself.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Okay, so.

When someone asks permission of a family member to marry, what they are asking is for good will and to start out the marriage as one big happy family.

The idea of getting the blessing of a family member (typically the father of the bride) is to avoid the implication of a secret marriage, where the family is left in the dark. Why the secrecy? What are you hiding from? Concerned family members want to know.

In other words, what Eol does cuts Aredhel off from her family so that she cannot contact them at all, and that is the problem. It's not like Aredhel needs her brother's permission (or her father's) to get married. Clearly not - she marries without that. But that deliberate cutting out of her family is abusive. It's not like they elope (both deciding to marry privately without family there). She isn't given the option of including her family in this decision.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I can understand the impulse to get the audience thinking, hey, wait a minute, Aredhel is still single....she could get married. I just don't think that her father or brothers should be discussing that hypothetical situation in the absence of any eligible young man in her life. And they certainly can't 'prepare' for Eöl's marriage-by-kidnap. When Finrod and Galadriel discuss Celeborn, it's because Galadriel is clearly in love with Celeborn, and their marriage is a distinct possibility. If we do want it to come up, it might be when Curufin is dismissive of the news of Galadriel's engagement. I don't think we want him to say that if any of his cousins were going to do something dumb and flighty like that, he'd expect it to be Aredhel, not Galadriel - that's just completely tactless. But we could somehow include Aredhel in that discussion. Maybe she could express, I don't get it either, but Angrod assures me that they are happy together, so who am I to say otherwise?

I have had conversations with very close friends and family members about their significant others, and sometimes rather serious or heavy conversations which are very much a 'hey, I don't think you should marry this guy.' But you have to be really delicate when you do that, because that's not something you can tell someone else to do. It's one thing if you're the parent of a teenager - you can set rules and restrictions on contact between the young people, and hope to deter unwanted relationships that way (although...good luck). It's quite another thing if the people involved are adults. Then, you have to couch it in terms of 'you don't seem very happy' or 'you haven't been yourself lately' or 'hey, is something up with you two?' - inviting the other person to articulate whatever the issues are, rather than telling them that there's issues. And if you aren't really close good friends/family...you really have no business initiating that conversation (almost) regardless of circumstances. [The only exception I can think of is if you know a 'secret' that you feel obligated to share with the person's significant other...and even then.]

And...at the end of the day...no matter how close I've been to someone, it has *never* been up to me whether or not they got married. Cause...that's a decision you make yourself. Hopefully with the love and support of both families, but...that's not actually a requirement.
 
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