Session 5-10: Elves

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Session 5-10 will be held on Thursday July 30th at 10 PM, and our focus will be on the Elven storylines for Season 5.

We will discuss: Aegnor and Angrod, Finrod, Fingolfin and Fingon, and Maedhros. We will save Gondolin, Aredhel and Eöl, and the Sindar for another time.
 
Fingolfin and Fingon:
  • They'll be hearing word of First Contact with the House of Bëor, but don't get involved until Hador comes to them as a young man and they take him in as a ward. He'll likely be friends with Fingon, who grants him his own lands of Dor-Lomin.
  • Fingolfin calls for "the Big Push" against Angband, where he is supported by Angrod and Aegnor, but is rebuffed. Now why would Fingon go against his father on this?
  • The Siege will be broken, Fingolfin will challenge Morgoth to single combat as a sign for the Valar, and is killed. When word is heard Fingon becomes King.
  • Fingolfin and Fingon will have to deal with Annael's treachery. Now what form should it take?...
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Fingolfin and Fingon:
  • They'll be hearing word of First Contact with the House of Bëor, but don't get involved until Hador comes to them as a young man and they take him in as a ward. He'll likely be friends with Fingon, who grants him his own lands of Dor-Lomin.
  • Fingolfin calls for "the Big Push" against Angband, where he is supported by Angrod and Aegnor, but is rebuffed. Now why would Fingon go against his father on this?
  • The Siege will be broken, Fingolfin will challenge Morgoth to single combat as a sign for the Valar, and is killed. When word is heard Fingon becomes King.
  • Fingolfin and Fingon will have to deal with Annael's treachery. Now what form should it take?...
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I think Fingolfin and Fingon should invite Hador and the other Men from the House of Hador to come live with them. Hador shouldn’t come to them on his own initiative.

What if Annael and Rhogrin’s escape from Angband happens early in the season and prompts a mission to help other prisoners escape? It wouldn’t be a direct attack on Angband, but there could still be enough action to make for an interesting story during the Long Peace. Annael’s treachery could be sabotaging this mission and/or revealing it to the bad guys.

I feel like this storyline would be a great way to involve several of our main characters. Fingon would probably want to be involved because Rhogrin is his lieutenant and he has been to Angband before when he rescued Maedhros. Angrod and Orodreth would probably want to be involved because of Edhellos. Fingolfin, Aegnor, and the Fëanorians could help out as well if we wanted them to, and, depending on when this takes place, Hador might also help.
 
I do think it will be important to discuss Fingolfin's (unfulfilled) plan to attack Morgoth. There will have to be a build up to what prompts him to decide that now is the time (House of Hador stuff), and then resistance from Elves who have gotten very comfortable with the 400 year peace and want to maintain the status quo of vigilance and preparedness, content to wait on Morgoth to attack (and maybe he won't!) We'll have to see why Angrod and Aegnor are on board (they are less likely to be putting great reliance on the relatively small and untested House of Bëor), and why Maedhros is *not* - what is his alternative plan? He has Amlach, but few other mortal allies. He likely counts on the dwarves, as well. So...is he waiting for more Easterlings?

If the treachery of Annael can be connected to Fingolfin's plans, I think that will be positive. But I do agree that we need Hador to be a heroic young warrior, winning renown doing *something* at the earlier part of this timeline.
 
MithLuin said:
I do think it will be important to discuss Fingolfin's (unfulfilled) plan to attack Morgoth. There will have to be a build up to what prompts him to decide that now is the time (House of Hador stuff), and then resistance from Elves who have gotten very comfortable with the 400 year peace and want to maintain the status quo of vigilance and preparedness, content to wait on Morgoth to attack (and maybe he won't!) We'll have to see why Angrod and Aegnor are on board (they are less likely to be putting great reliance on the relatively small and untested House of Bëor), and why Maedhros is *not* - what is his alternative plan? He has Amlach, but few other mortal allies. He likely counts on the dwarves, as well. So...is he waiting for more Easterlings?

If the treachery of Annael can be connected to Fingolfin's plans, I think that will be positive. But I do agree that we need Hador to be a heroic young warrior, winning renown doing *something* at the earlier part of this timeline.
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Maybe Glaurung would be brought up by either side; ie Maedhros saying that they need more time/people, while Fingolfin (maybe Fingon) would say that putting down such a creature would be why they should act now.

House of Hador: I suggest that Hador has a premonition shortly before his death, which he tells Fingolfin, and this is the impetus for Fingolfin to call for a final assault on Angband.
 
Definitely we are going to have foresight and visions factor into these conversations. The idea is to do it with a light hand, because otherwise it sounds like people are being led around by the nose rather than making their own decisions. I think it is possible for at least one voice of caution/resistance (Fingon?) be because they know the Peace *won't* last - and while waiting for Morgoth to attack might not be the wisest choice, preemptively turning your Cold War into an actual war isn't the greatest, either.

The idea of Hador having a final scene where he imparts insight to the elf-lords is a good idea - we will want to give him some sort of send-off, likely, and we are unlikely to show his death scene. So, a final meeting with his buddy Fingon, who looks as young as he did when they moved into Dor-lomin, but Hador himself is now an old man? Yeah, that would fit with the themes of the season, and drive home the point that Humans die off while waiting for battles that happen in the future. (With the House of Bëor, we will see that Andreth is leading *many* more people out of Nargothrond than Bëor led into it, so the quick population explosion of Men compared to Elves will be clear, too.)

I realize that not every human family does the population explosion thing - there are plenty of only children out there without siblings, and plenty of people who never have children of their own. I think with the House of Bëor, we will need to see that happen, though. If we need to make it clear that some of the families Bëor was leading were not closely related to him, we can do that, so there's not a weird 'everyone married their first cousin' vibe to it.
 
MithLuin said:
I do think it will be important to discuss Fingolfin's (unfulfilled) plan to attack Morgoth. There will have to be a build up to what prompts him to decide that now is the time (House of Hador stuff), and then resistance from Elves who have gotten very comfortable with the 400 year peace and want to maintain the status quo of vigilance and preparedness, content to wait on Morgoth to attack (and maybe he won't!) We'll have to see why Angrod and Aegnor are on board (they are less likely to be putting great reliance on the relatively small and untested House of Bëor), and why Maedhros is *not* - what is his alternative plan? He has Amlach, but few other mortal allies. He likely counts on the dwarves, as well. So...is he waiting for more Easterlings?

If the treachery of Annael can be connected to Fingolfin's plans, I think that will be positive. But I do agree that we need Hador to be a heroic young warrior, winning renown doing *something* at the earlier part of this timeline.
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Just to be clear, my suggestion for an attempted Angband rescue mission was meant to be something separate from Fingolfin’s push to assault Angband before the Dagor Bragollach. It could happen around the time Hador is a young man serving under Fingolfin and Fingon, before he brings his house to live with them. That way , Hador could win renown doing reconnaissance or fighting associated with the rescue mission.
 
Yes, I understand that. Hador pre-Council needs to be a warrior serving Fingon and winning renown. So, if we want Annael's treachery to be revealed ~Episode 6, it will work out well to combine those. My suggestion was to make sure the Rhogrin and Annael escape from Angband storyline (and Annael's subsequent treachery) all tie back into Fingolfin's storyline because we don't want that to be a separate/independent plotline.

Fingolfin does need a storyline that stretches across the entire season. We need to set up his death in the aftermath of the Dagor Braggolach in Episode 1 or 2 in some way. His firm belief that the Noldor can win this, that the Siege can succeed, where he places his hope for the future...all of that needs to be established. And yes, I know that that is a continuation of the Season 4 storyline for him, but we have to develop his post-Glaurung views still. We aren't going to have a lot of screentime for the Elvish plotlines (besides Aredhel, and places where they intersect with the Men). And yet, Fingolfin needs to be a strong character throughout the season, so that there is no danger of getting to Episode 13 and having anyone in the audience think, 'wait...who is that one again?'
 
MithLuin said:
Yes, I understand that. Hador pre-Council needs to be a warrior serving Fingon and winning renown. So, if we want Annael's treachery to be revealed ~Episode 6, it will work out well to combine those. My suggestion was to make sure the Rhogrin and Annael escape from Angband storyline (and Annael's subsequent treachery) all tie back into Fingolfin's storyline because we don't want that to be a separate/independent plotline.

Fingolfin does need a storyline that stretches across the entire season. We need to set up his death in the aftermath of the Dagor Braggolach in Episode 1 or 2 in some way. His firm belief that the Noldor can win this, that the Siege can succeed, where he places his hope for the future...all of that needs to be established. And yes, I know that that is a continuation of the Season 4 storyline for him, but we have to develop his post-Glaurung views still. We aren't going to have a lot of screentime for the Elvish plotlines (besides Aredhel, and places where they intersect with the Men). And yet, Fingolfin needs to be a strong character throughout the season, so that there is no danger of getting to Episode 13 and having anyone in the audience think, 'wait...who is that one again?'
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How did he react to the news of Glaurung when he showed up back at the end of last season?
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
How did he react to the news of Glaurung when he showed up back at the end of last season?
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Fingolfin is in Nargothrond at the end of Season 4 while Fingon is still in Ard-Galen; barely anyone not part of the encounter knows about Glaurung yet. A useful reminder, since we certainly need to keep that in mind for the beginning of this season 🙂

As far as the source of this information is concerned, I looked this up in the great scripts for Season 4 which can be found here. Very helpful for making sure everyone's on the same page!
 
One thing to keep in mind about Glaurung is that even though he attacked in Episode 13 of Season 4, a lot of time passed between his attack and the last scene of that episode, which was Finrod discovering the House of Beor. Any discussion of Glaurung's attack in Season 5 should be referring to it as something that happened decades ago.
 
Rhiannon said:
One thing to keep in mind about Glaurung is that even though he attacked in Episode 13 of Season 4, a lot of time passed between his attack and the last scene of that episode, which was Finrod discovering the House of Beor. Any discussion of Glaurung's attack in Season 5 should be referring to it as something that happened decades ago.
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If those decades become an issue when we go further into detail, would there be any problem with shortening the time gap between those two scenes?
 
Alcarlótë said:
If those decades become an issue when we go further into detail, would there be any problem with shortening the time gap between those two scenes?
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The amount of time between Glaurung's attack and Finrod's discovery of Men was not explicitly defined in the episode, and exact length of it does not really matter. However, several things which would take a long time (the Dragonhelm being forged, Ents moving from one place to another, Elven children growing up) are shown happening between those two events.

I think it's fine for Glaurung to come up in discussions of the siege; he was, after all, the most recent attack from Angband and quite a serious threat. We just shouldn't be opening Season 5 with everyone acting like Glaurung's attack just happened and worrying about how to respond.

Thinking about how we open Season 5, though, perhaps we could start with a meeting of the lords of the Noldor where they are discussing the siege. Someone could ask where Finrod is, and Maedhros and Maglor could mention that he disappeared while he was hunting with them. Then, we cut to Finrod's encounter with the House of Beor.
 
Looking into the near future for a bit, are there plans for a session regarding the villain storyline of Season 5? After my post about the prophecy of Huan, I'm growing more and more sympathetic to the idea of making it a part of that storyline (and the Dagor Bragollach part of the Season which we will get to eventually; when the Pass of Aglon falls, Celegorm and Curufin will abandon it to arrive in Nargothrond at the start of Season 6).

A few scenes about Huan don't really fit anywhere else, in my opinion; Celegorm is pretty irrelevant even in the debate around a possible assault (we could change that, but it seems like it's already complicated enough) and Luthien isn't involved much this season either - also, Huan's love for her in Season 6 is spontaneous and on first sight. Beren could work, but he is introduced very late in the season and him knowing Huan early has implications we would need to be aware of. On the other hand Sauron, Thuringwethil and Draugluin all meet Huan at Tol-in-Gaurhoth while Morgoth starts to prepare Carcharoth as an anti-Huan door guard - they obviously know Huan's fate, so they and the audience need to learn about it.
 
Alcarlótë said:
Looking into the near future for a bit, are there plans for a session regarding the villain storyline of Season 5? After my post about the prophecy of Huan, I'm growing more and more sympathetic to the idea of making it a part of that storyline (and the Dagor Bragollach part of the Season which we will get to eventually; when the Pass of Aglon falls, Celegorm and Curufin will abandon it to arrive in Nargothrond at the start of Season 6).

A few scenes about Huan don't really fit anywhere else, in my opinion; Celegorm is pretty irrelevant even in the debate around a possible assault (we could change that, but it seems like it's already complicated enough) and Luthien isn't involved much this season either - also, Huan's love for her in Season 6 is spontaneous and on first sight. Beren could work, but he is introduced very late in the season and him knowing Huan early has implications we would need to be aware of. On the other hand Sauron, Thuringwethil and Draugluin all meet Huan at Tol-in-Gaurhoth while Morgoth starts to prepare Carcharoth as an anti-Huan door guard - they obviously know Huan's fate, so they and the audience need to learn about it.
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The ideas for villain storylines have been trickling in for a bit; the main player is likely going to be Sauron, since he has a catch-and-release program involving captured Elves (which is intertwined with Rhogrin and Annael) and his actions against the Edain. His henchman Tevildo will be involved and will be killed by Haleth. But all that will go dark after the Council at Estolad where Sauron is exposed masquerading as his puppet Amlach and forced to flee. Then everything comes back with the Dagor Bragollach.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
The ideas for villain storylines have been trickling in for a bit; the main player is likely going to be Sauron, since he has a catch-and-release program involving captured Elves (which is intertwined with Rhogrin and Annael) and his actions against the Edain. His henchman Tevildo will be involved and will be killed by Haleth. But all that will go dark after the Council at Estolad where Sauron is exposed masquerading as his puppet Amlach and forced to flee. Then everything comes back with the Dagor Bragollach.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information 🙂 Looks like there's a good opportunity for a new project of Sauron's - he has to get back into Morgoth's good graces somehow, especially since the Dagor Bragollach goes well and is more Gothmog's and Glaurung's thing (even though Sauron and his underlings should participate, directly or indirectly) and it going well is what enables Sauron to take over Tol-in-Gaurhoth afterwards in the first place.
 
Sorry, I was working a late shift and missed the first part of the episode once again. I'll go back and add notes on what I missed as soon as possible.

Updated now

SilmFilm Session 5-10: Elves

Elves this season are dealing with two primary things: the arrival of Men and the siege of Angband. Glaurung's appearance last season has given some reason for concern about what Morgoth may be developing.

Fingolfin is going to propose an attack on Angband. In the book, Angrod and Aegnor are the only ones who support him. However. it seems strange that Maedhros would not be in favor of fighting Morgoth. Why might he go against Fingolfin?

The Oath does not force the Feanorians to attack; they can bide their time and be strategic. Maybe Maedhros is concerned about the Noldor losing Doriath and Gondolin as allies. Maedhros might be in favor of attacking butt disagree with Fingolfin's specific plan. This will be a time when Fingolfin is trying to exercise his power as high king, which means coordinating the military of all the Noldor, so some of the Feanorians might be against his plan because they were not in favor of Maedhros's abdication. Maedhros abdicated because he wanted the Noldor to be united against Morgoth, and he knew that would only happen if Fingolfin became high king. Any kind of tactical disagreement would need to be really significant in order for Maedhros to not go along with Fingolfin.

Fingolfin has a premonition that the Noldor need to start attacking Morgoth in order to get the Valar's help defeating him. His duel with Morgoth will be a continuation of this idea rather than an act of despair. We can show the Valar's reaction to this to show that, even though it looked like Fingolfin accomplished nothing, he actually did something necessary for future events. Fingolfin's attack on Morgoth can further drive the wedge between Morgoth and Sauron because Sauron will lose faith in Morgoth after seeing him wounded. Morgoth himself will be declining as time goes on, even though his dominion over Middle-earth is increasing. Fingolfin's attack can also bring hope that Morgoth is assailable. This, along with Beren and Luthien, can be part of what causes Maedhros to take heart again before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

When Fingolfin first proposes his plan to Maedhros, Maedhros would be excited about the possibility of an attack but not eager to frontally assault Angband because he does not believe the Valar will come. Maybe the Feanorians need to relinquish their claim on the Silmarils and repent of the Oath in order for the Valar to come and their refusal to do this is why the plan goes awry.

Repentance from the Fëanorians is necessary for Ulmo to deliver the Valar to the Noldor’s aid against Morgoth. Before the Dagor Bragollach, he will give Fingolfin foresight (possibly in a dream) that he needs to show his resolution to attack Morgoth and the Fëanorians need to repent. When Ulmo comes to Tuor, he will say that he can deliver the Valar without repentance from the Fëanorians because sympathy for the Noldor has increased.

There should be periodic reminders of how bad the Oath is and how it drives the Fëanorians. They should also be shown repeatedly choosing not to repent.

Amras could be the only Fëanorian to speak up in favor of Fingolfin’s plans. He is in favor of repentance, even if he does not believe the Noldor are capable of defeating Morgoth or that the Valar will help them. His support of Fingolfin is undermined by his hopelessness.

There will be three big opportunities for the Noldor to do something that seems like a bad idea in order to get help from the Valar: this offer before the Dagor Bragollach, Turgon attacking from Gondolin, and Eärendil sailing to Valinor. The third option will seem the most desperate.

Finrod would not support Fingolfin because he sees emptying his safe haven and attacking as contradicting his vision for the mission of Nargothrond.

Maedhros doesn’t want to attack desperately in hopes of getting aid from the Valar; he would rather go on the offensive using sound military strategy. Fingon agrees with Maedhros.

Fëanorian views:

Amras speaks against the Oath and wants to repent.

Maedhros and Maglor don’t think going against the Oath is possible. Maedhros thinks he is trapped and only wants to take out as many servants of Morgoth as he can with him. He wants the Oath to do as little harm to others as possible.

Curufin, Celegorm, and Caranthir would be outraged at the suggestion of repentance. Curufin would see it as an attack on the Fëanorians’ sovereignty. Curufin wants to unite all the realms of Beleriand under his leadership before attacking Morgoth. Curufin might encourage Fingolfin to do something suicidal so he can become High King.

Angrod and Aegnor’s views:

They share enthusiasm for Fingolfin’s idea. Angrod might support Fingolfin out of despair and in order to go against the Fëanorians. He is angry at the Fëanorians and wants them to repent. Aegnor has hope and believes the Valar will come. Ironically, Aegnor will be one of the first killed in battle. Aegnor’s hopefulness at receiving aid from the Valar will be a change from his views in Season 4. Angrod or Finrod may accuse Aegnor of hoping that the Valar will help him live happily ever after with Andreth after they beat Morgoth.

Angrod does not approve of Aegnor and Andreth’s relationship because, as a widower, he knows what it is like to lose a spouse and doesn’t want Aegnor to experience that. He might see Aegnor’s hopefulness as too extreme. Angrod will not dislike Andreth merely because she is human, and he is not completely opposed to the relationship.

The tension in this season will be more about conflicting worldviews than politics or action. The Athrabeth will be the heart of this season.
 
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How would Curufin influence Fingolfin into doing something suicidal? He's going to be on the run and not like he has access to a raven (Game of Thrones reference).

Speaking of Curufin, there's also his wife to figure out. Something has to happen to her to make escape impossible for her for the rest of the Age, most likely a serious, incapacitating injury.

And what do we have to work on for next time?
 
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